Thursday, April 10, 2008


I'm not going to go into details, but today Judd Winick caused a mild amount of strife between myself and Kalinara.

We settled it peacefully, mind you, but this very rarely happens.  I blame Judd Winick for it, and mark my words... I shall have my revenge.

In all seriousness, we do need a bet settled.  Riddle me this, dearest readers: Who would be more comfortable in a gay nightclub in the late 90s, Wildcat Ted Grant or Flash Jay Garrick?

Show your work.


  1. Ummmmmmmmmm . . . hum. That's a tough one. I don't really know a lot about Jay Garrick, as I grew up a Marvel fan, but I have grown to quite like Wildcat from the few appearances I've seen of him.

    Now, as I understand it, Jay Garrick has spent most of his golden years being married and fairly dull in comparison to Ted "I'm a scrappy boxer who has been known to share a bed with Catwoman" Grant. Right?

    As a result of this, I'd say Wildcat would be a tad more comfortable in the 90's gay bar due to his having had more interesting experiences. But just a tad, mind you.

  2. Ted Grant. My reasoning? It would make Dorian REALLY happy...

  3. I'm gonna have to side with the Ted team as well. Mostly because Ted was big in the whole Vegas/Rat Pack/1950's scene
    (and how cool a comic would that be? Ted takes Alan and Jay out for a night in Vegas in the 50's? Add monkeys and a purple cover and it's going to sell itself.)
    And living in Vegas he's gotta be a worldly kinda guy.
    And really Jay ... Jay kinda of strikes me as a more "some of my best friends are gay" kind of guy. You know trying real hard to be enlightened but still kind of uncomfortable. Hey I like Jay and I'd say he's trying hard even but ya know ... Midwest ... 1930 ... not the most enlightened time and place to grow up.

  4. Ted. I can't see Jay being comfortable in any nightclub. I don't think it would be easy to get Ted to get there, though - he did come up in a gym in the thirties; I'd imagine there would be a culture there that wouldn't look upon "fairies" too kindly.

    But I also think Ted would be fine once he got a couple of drinks in him; he honestly seems less likely to care about being surrounded by gay people than Jay, despite Jay's having been on cordial terms with more gay people as individuals (ie, Piper and his boyfriend).

  5. Ted Grant...but hey, he's Wildcat.

    Besides, Jay could get in-and-out of a place in a hurry; Ted's more of a 'let's sit for awhile and have a few brews' kind of guy.

  6. (and how cool a comic would that be? Ted takes Alan and Jay out for a night in Vegas in the 50's?

    Theres an issue of something that I saw on Scans_Daily where several JSA'ers do that as a bachelor party for Jay when he was in Vegas for his honeymoon. And then I think they got in a fight with Icicle or someone...

    Also Reason #2345 to out Ted Grant as bi-curious. Avi Green's head would a'splode...

  7. Ted. Given his back-ground, it's closer to his milieu than Jay's. Jay is a refined, upper-class guy, very Ivy League elite, while Ted is much earthier and more of a man of the streets.

    (Please note, this is without mentioning the bodybuilder movie phase of Ted's career, alluded to in Birds of Prey, his 'rough trade' dress sense from his revised origin in Showcase 90-something, or the vague hints of just how CLOSE Ted and Al Pratt were in the Mike Parobek illustrated Justice Society of America series.)

  8. "the vague hints of just how CLOSE Ted and Al Pratt were in the Mike Parobek illustrated Justice Society of America series"

    Eh, I never read anything into that other than they were old drinking buddies. And they made lots of "gay jokes" (or, something along those lines, taunting the Ultra-Humanite about his feminine past) to boot!

    But Ted strikes me as the kind of guy who'd in practice be tolerant... but at the same time, never giving up the right to make a politically incorrect joke (about anything or anyone) if he feels like it!

  9. Oh Ted, by far. He just seems to be more of a partier than Jay does. I picture Jay sitting on the couch with a bowl of popcorn and Joan, and watching Casablanca as opposed to whooping it up in nightclubs.

    I haven't read Titans with Winick, but I did read Green Arrow/Black Canary with Winick, and I have to admit that the latter was pretty funny. I find myself somewhat flabberghasted.

  10. I seem to recall that the first time I read anything about Piper's homosexuality was when Jay made a somewhat disparaging/disapproving/uncomfortable comment about his "lifestyle." I imagine he'd be more comfortable than that with that sort of thing now, but in the 90s? Definitely Ted.

  11. Since you've specified late 90s, we need to take into account who was likely to write the adventures of Jay or Ted in the late 90s. Mark Waid was the premier Flash writer back then, and he would have portrayed Jay as totally cool with gays -- that's just how Mark rolls. But Wildcat, as a character, would have been more likely to be pawned off on some hack 90s writer who felt obligated to make him overreact to the gaystorm around him. Jay wins.

  12. OK, so now I'm very curious. What about the issue caused strife in the dynamite duo of Ragnell and Kalinara?

  13. Depends on the type of club right? I mean if its a more upscale martini bar then Jay. College guy, chemist, businessman, friends with other captains of industry types, I can see him sipping a martini and talking about how well Alan works a high collared cape.

    But a more butch leather bar where you can get a beer and have some posing posturing contests, then Ted. More testosterone, pulsing lights and music, lots of bare chests and steely eyed attempts to out Hawkman Carter.


  14. Rob, now that's a secret.

    But to give you a hint, well, there's a reason she's asking this particular question. :-)

    So far, it looks like she's winning. I'll concede gracefully. :-)

  15. My answer is that it depends what you mean by "comfortable."

    Jay Garrick would be more "comfortable" in the sense of, "I am considering myself an open-minded guy, and whatever two people what to do is no business of mine . . ."

    Ted Grant would be more comfortable in the sense of having fun hanging out with the hunky guys in the bar, and he wouldn't have even realized until someone pointed it out later that night that everyone he was hanging out with was gay.

  16. Are we assuming that for the purposes of this discussion Ted and Jay are both gay themselves (like in 99% of fanfic), or are we sticking with their canon sexuality?

    If the latter, I'd say Ted, because he's more open-minded. The night would be a lot less awkward.

    On the other hand, if I were gay and had to choose one of them with whom to go on a date, I'd choose Jay, because he's more of a gentleman.

  17. Hmm, Jey's a pretty easygoing guy, but Ted could just slap some chaps on his costume and fit right in.

    That said, now I'm picturing Jay Garrick with a handlebar mustache, and it's all your fault.

  18. This might be considered cheating, but I'm actually serious:

    I have to imagine the worst thing for either one of them would be getting involved in some kind of disturbance at the club and consequently being on a cable news network or in a paper because of it. I say this only because they both remind me of my grandpa, and he was the most liberal old guy you could ever meet (think Bizzaro John McCain), so long as he didn't have to sit and watch it happen in front of him. There is really no circumstance I could see anyone from that generation ever objectively being comfortable unless they were gay themselves.

    So I have to say oldschool Flash would be more "comfortable", if only for the fact that he always knows in the back of his head that he could be the hell out and away from there before anyone could blink if things got weird.

    Wildcat would have to brawl if he felt encroached upon, which I have no doubt he would be fine with, but still slightly less comfortable than Jay would with his ability to make a totally clean escape.