Hey, don't blame me. Blame society. For better or worse, geeks (and here, I mean male geeks) are considered cool. Not as cool as guys who, you know, are good-looking and have lots of money. But still pretty cool. Obviously, girls can be geeks, too, but they're slightly more limited in what interests they can pursue and still maintain respect in the eyes of the world. Girl gamers? Cool. Girl comic book fans? Cool. Girl doll collectors? Not so much.Okay, who told this poor guy he was considered cool? Because that was not nice.
Wednesday, November 14, 2007
Oh dear.
Umm....
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My mom tells me I'm cool.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, what exactly are you taking umbrage with? Are you claiming that the world does, in fact, consider grown women who collect dolls to be cool?
Did you read the rest of the post, where I said there was nothing wrong with women who collect dolls (no matter how much it might bug me personally), it was all about when and how you choose to tell people about it?
Or did you just get halfway through and decide to take an easy shot?
I have to disagree with Scotus here. Neither comic collectors, gamers or doll collectors will EVER be considered cool by "the rest of the world". But if you look at the prevalent stereotypes of each:
ReplyDeletedoll collectors: middle aged women and men of debatable sexual preference, generally financially well-off, probably prissy/finicky, works in some sort of white color, maybe academic profession...
comic book collectors: Fat, slovenly perpetual virgins living in their mothers' basements. Women don't exist period, of course.
gamers: See above, with greasier hair.
I mean, none of them are EVER going to be considered "cool" by folks who don't share that passion. That said when it comes to stereotypes, I know which one I'd consider to be a bit more socially acceptable.
You might question the doll collector's sexuality, but at least you can be fairly certain he/she showers.
Kind of a low blow, Kali, but yeah, that's the point.
ReplyDeleteYou make lots of qualifiers, Scotus, but the clearest part of your post was that certain (conveniently masculine-coded) activities are considered cool while other (interestingly feminine-coded) activities are not.
That's the part that amused me, well, that and the fact that you met a woman who satisfied your favorite fetishes but you found her doll collection a turn-off.
The rest is a bit confusing, I admit. You go on to say that its because guys are sneaky about their geekiness which is cool yet needs to be sprung on women, and that guys are comfortable with their geekiness (because its really cool but women don't understand that its cool) and other mixed messages.
But really, I got the general impression that the comic book readers are more socially accepted than the doll collectors. You seem to feel this is because men accept that their hobbies are not actually cool which somehow makes them cooler than the female activities that turn you off even when you meet a girl who satisfies your fetishes.
Ultimately it comes off as: "Geeky boy stuff is cool." "Girls who like geeky boy stuff are cool." "Geeky girl stuff is a turn-off for me, so avoid telling any man about it ever."
Naturally, I was a bit offended and chose to make fun of you.
Also, you say right in your post that you are better than a woman who collects dolls.
ReplyDeleteNo amount of "Oh but don't be ashamed ladies, just pick your moment to break it gently" is really going to make up for that.
Oh, come on. The "better than" bit was clearly facetious. I'm not going to apologize for not putting an emoticon or LOL! after such an obviously absurd statement.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest of your comments, I think there's a disconnect between how we view the word "cool." Neither reading comic books or collecting dolls or anything along those lines are likely to make any list of socially desirable traits. But relative to each other, in our society, the "masculine coded" activities are clearly given more respect than "female coded" ones.
For all your bloviating, you have yet to disagree with this. But I guess righteous indignation is just more fun, huh?
I think the disconnect in the use of the word "cool" comes from who you hang out with, Scotus.
ReplyDeleteOther comic geeks think comics are "cool". Other gamer geeks think games are "cool". Other "action figure collector" geeks think "action figures" are cool. Other "model train" geeks think "model trains" are cool.
No one outside of those circles thinks any of those things are "cool".
The same is true for "doll collecting" - other "doll collectors" think collecting dolls is "cool" - the rest of the world, not so much.
The only real hard-core fandom that the rest of the world accepts with any level of tolerance is sports-fandom - guys and gals can paint their bodies all kinds of freaky colors and sit half-naked in a stadium on a wintery Sunday afternoon and people don't think anything of it. But dress as a Klingon to go see a Star Trek movie in a warm theater and suddenly you're "weird" and "geeky" and "uncool". Just the way it is.
Well, yeah, she's righteously indignant that society codes things as masculine and feminine, and that among otherwise equally geeky traits it will be accepting of the masculine and dismissive of the feminine. Why shouldn't she be? It sucks.
ReplyDeleteAnd so yeah, a post celebrating that rankles. And makes you look like a jackass.
For all your bloviating, you have yet to disagree with this. But I guess righteous indignation is just more fun, huh?
ReplyDeleteOne day I'll start a Ragnell specific Bingo card. Or possibly a drinking game. And every variation of "you won't accept my argument because you just like being mean" is going to feature pretty damn heavily...
I mean I know shes mean. Because she won't make me cookies. And she likes to laugh as I slowly succumb to hunger. But I don't think that her evilness actually goes anywhere as a counterpoint...
But relative to each other, in our society, the "masculine coded" activities are clearly given more respect than "female coded" ones.
ReplyDeleteNo one is denying this as fact; rather, we're not convinced it must stay fact. Society is not an immutable, external force. Society is us. If we decide to value men and women, girl-things and boy-things equally, then society does too. Just because you're comfortable with the current gender order does not mean it is unchangeable. I suspect you know this, though, or you wouldn't feel so threatened by dolls.
Yep, I'll take the low shot. And I'll further it by saying that anyone who can be such a jerk over someone else's innocuous hobby is inherently uncool, no matter the size of his comics collection.
Don't dish out the bullying nonsense if you can't take it.
Man, if geekery were considered cool, I wouldn't have to feel awkward trying to explain my interest in comics and RPGs and video games to strangers who are out of middle school.
ReplyDeleteBecause she won't make me cookies. And she likes to laugh as I slowly succumb to hunger.
Some people would pay a lot of money for that service...
I totally want to see that Bingo card, though.
Hey, don't knock Barbies! Her accessories are great for Action Figures!
ReplyDeleteAction figures are cool...right?
It's really rather lunatic to think that in the wider society that a comics reading guy is cooler than a doll collecting woman. I assure you, that outside of your own subgroup, if you switch genders and replace doll shop with comic store, that the friends of the woman who had a 33 year old date buy a bunch of comics and lovingly discuss them over lunch would be as dismissive as Elliot was.
ReplyDeleteI think interms of social ranking, Scotus has a point:
ReplyDeleteCertain geeky and masculine coded pursuits spill over into acceptibility, depending on how one pursues them. Reading a liking comics is okay, and arguably cool among hipsters as long as your superhero reading in limited and your alternative reading is high. Superheroes are more out there, but that interest is validated by current film and TV trends. Gaming also gets by.
LARPing and cosplay, are still fringe.
I'm a comic geek and a model railroader, and an AFOL (adult friend of lego). The railroader and lego communities are definitely enthusiastic, but certainly cannot and do not make the kinds of claims to hipness (maybe that's a better word than cool) that scifi, comics/superheroes and video games cultures can.
Girl doll collecting probably ranks as an unhip eccentricity, like lego and model trains--unless you're doing it ironically or as art. But knitting (female coded) is currently hip.
And while I'm on a roll:
Fashion geeks (i.e. Vogue readers and Sex and the CIty idetifiers), car geeks, music geeks and film geeks are just as socially acceptable/cool as sports geeks.
And furthermore: Asian women with English accents may be hot, but Asian men with Scottish accents are certainly hotter, and European women with Mongolian accents are so hot they'll melt your thermometer!
Too bad the only one of those I've ever met liked to watch cooking shows. Talk about a deal breaker!
Dude, Scotus, she's not bloviating at you. She's just pointing at you and laughing. Believe me, if you think this qualifies as righteous indignation, you really need to look at the archives here. This is more like...bemusement or something.
ReplyDelete(For what it's worth, the whole "but I can name every president on '24'!" thing -- to say nothing of "I don't know the difference between Faulkner and Dickens, but I know why Star Wars is better than 'Star Trek'!" -- makes you sound like a complete stereotypical choad who just escaped from a fucking Kevin Smith movie, but since I don't know you at all, I'm gonna presume you were just kidding around for comedic effect.
Because, of course, you were...
...Weren't you?
...Aw, c'mon, man...)
I DO know Faulkner from Dickens (I read lots of literary stuff), never watched "24," occasionally enjoy both "Star Trek" and "Star Wars," read comics, collect dolls, know tons about Japanese street fashion, go to as many rock shows as my budget and schedule will allow... so I win.
ReplyDeleteA Ragnell Bingo card,eh?
ReplyDeleteWould "DONNA TROY SUCKS" be the center square?
notintheface - She admitted she's starting to like Donna. Donna grows on people like fungus.
ReplyDeleteAs a doll collector, I can say that I do think it's more socially acceptable than comics collecting. There's a stereotype that you're flighty, creepy, and prissy, but it's considered more normal than having boxes and boxes of funnybooks.
My baseball obsession is, indeed, completely socially acceptable.
And while knitting may be having a "cool moment", it's we devotees of crochet that really live on the edge...
I collect dolls.
ReplyDeleteBut only cool ones. And I draw the line at doll collecting fandom, which is a strange and scary place. Even by feminist comic fandom standards.
zhinxy - Sadly, I doubt crochet will ever reach the level of cool that knitting is at right now, if only because one of the major crochet concepts is called the "granny square." There's no way to make that hip. *sigh*
ReplyDelete"Certain geeky and masculine coded pursuits spill over into acceptibility, depending on how one pursues them. Reading a liking comics is okay, and arguably cool among hipsters as long as your superhero reading in limited and your alternative reading is high. Superheroes are more out there, but that interest is validated by current film and TV trends. Gaming also gets by."
ReplyDeleteEric's spot-on!
Those brightly coloured t-shirts with distressed superhero symbols that only go so high in size? Geek-chic exists.
Someone's scope is showing~!
Okay...
ReplyDeleteCompletely OT but I doubt I'll get a chance like this ever again so...
To all you doll collectors, I've recently been getting interested in certain aspects of doll collecting. Mainly, I've found myself joyfully perusing those websites where you buy intricately-moulded doll heads, eyes, hair, clothes, hands etc and then hand-paint the faces to make unique and gorgeous dolls.
But damn if it isn't hugely expensive. Any tips for a newbie on a very tight budget?
Bunny
Mike, if you think trendy superhero symbols on clothing meant to elicit feelings of childish nostalgia among consumers means that actually buying and reading comic books is considered an acceptable pursuit by the majority of the American population, you're dreaming. We all know the stereotypes, they have not gone away because a few superhero symbols can be sold on T-shirts.
ReplyDeleteIts one thing to go along to the beat of your own drummer, its another to delude yourself into thinking the rest of the world enjoys the same rhythm.
"male activies" are given more respect by men. "female activities" are given less respect by men.
ReplyDeleteThat's not society. And I think the issue ppl are having with you scotus is that you assume that society is what men think. It may be what's important to you but it's not important to EVERYBODY.
Also you use "cool" like it's an objective term.
Actually it sounds more like a justification for them to not feel "uncool". :\ Like "well girls do it and it's about time they felt as socially rejected as I do!"
ReplyDelete