I consider myself a jaded superhero/science fiction fan, but I'll admit the setup for next issue threw me for a loop. I was expecting Melodramatic Superhero Time Travel Plot Cliche #4, which gives the protagonist the exact opposite objective.
That is a way to make things interesting, though. Its highly unlikely DC will let them succeed, which means we'll get to see the good guys deal with failure and scramble to fix what they can. However, if they do succeed (and we get a sliver of a chance of this because DC has a big crossover coming up and we know they like to juggle shit around when they have crossovers planned) we get to watch several DC writers frantically try to adjust to the new timeline.
Granted, both options could result in the writers and editors falling flat on their faces, but success really wouldn't be the least bit impressive if there wasn't a decent chance of screwing things up very badly.
Suggestion...The Man Who Folded Himself,an INCREDIBLE time-travel book!
ReplyDeleteOh god, the gender issues in that book... part of me wants to second that suggestion just to see the resulting explosive rant.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't Barbara Gordon lead the Justice League as Oracle? :\ Leading can be done without actually being able to kick ppl in the face.
ReplyDeleteI think she's definitely capable of leading the League, but it would conflict with her personal projects with the Birds of Prey, which I don't think she'd give up.
ReplyDeletePersonally I'd rather Babs stay Oracle 'cause the altered history would just be too much work to figure out... but I also appreciate that they're acknowledging that The Killing Joke was ill-conceived.
Given the way the mission was brought up, I have a feeling Rip is sending Booster on it to teach him a lesson about trying to alter the past. Like, it's going to go really, really badly, nothing will change for the better (i.e. Barbara will still get shot and be in the chair in the present) and Rip will be all like, "See? This is what happens when you try to save people who are supposed to get shot" or whatever.
ReplyDeleteAmi: It's not without precedent. There was a period in the mid-80's when no fewer than three teams were led by non-powered women -- a de-powered Storm in the X-Men, Heather Hudson in Alpha Flight, and Candy Southern in New Defenders.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'd like to see her go back to being Batgirl, not because I don't think she can be a capable leader as Oracle, but because I think writers use Oracle as a crutch too often. Batman doesn't investigate anymore, he calls up Oracle and has her read off the complete backstory of a supervillain from her database. Having a Super-Hero Onstar kind of makes it too easy for DC heroes, and I'd like to see that be unavailable to them, or at least harder to access.
ReplyDeletePlus, with developments in medicine being what they are, there's going to be a point in the not too distant future when it might very well be unrealistic for her to still be confined to a wheelchair. Every day, the research in healing spinal injuries progresses more and more. The days when "spinal injury" meant "wheelchair for life" are already behind us to some degree, and things are only going to get better on the medical front (unless, of course, we get another Republican administration.)
I don't have a problem with Babs regaining use of her legs through medicine and arduous therapy (in fact I think it would be uplifting); I just think a quick time-travel fix would be a cop-out.
ReplyDeleteAs for Batman and Oracle-Onstar, well, I think that's the writers' fault for being lazy, not the character's fault for being who she is.
I rather like the idea of using "quick time travel fix" to *finally* wipe out every single stupid thing DC managed to shove down our throats over the past x amount of years.
ReplyDeleteIf they can bring back Jason Todd by having Whineyboy Prime punch the walls of reality, they can certainly bring back Blue Beetle, make Barbara Gordon walk and save Barry Al - well, maybe not that last one.
Yet.
Yes, by all means, lets use time travel to wipe out every mistake that DC's ever made. But first, let's hold a roundtable to decide which editorial moves were mistakes. No sense moving forward until we get a consensus.
ReplyDeleteI'm really looking forward to next issue -- however the mission ends, it's sure to be worth reading.
(And Caleb, that's an interesting possibility, but if so, it doesn't look like Booster will learn the lesson, seeing as how he's already been shown mucking about in Ted's murder in the "coming soon" page of issue 1.
While I love the twist ending of the latest BG, and I can't wait to see how it plays out... it never occurred to me that DC would actually have Booster and Rip SUCCEED in "fixing" that one, and I think they'd be damned foolish to consider it.
ReplyDeletePaperghost, I can't consider Oracle a "mistake" on DC's part. Barbara Gordon as Oracle is a far more interesting, original character than Barbara Gordon ever was as the Earth-One Betty Kane, introduced to bolster the sagging ratings of a campy TV show that most fans would rather forget.
She's a more successful character, too. Her tenure as Oracle (1989-2007) is just three years shy of her tenure as Batgirl (1967-1988). At this stage, her Batgirl career was faltering; one reason Moore was allowed to treat her so cavalierly was because the character has simply failed to find a niche. She had never broken out of back-up series and Special Guest Sidekick appearances. The closest thing she'd gotten to a "team" was as a tagger-on to the Dynamic Duo. In the stories, Barbara was wondering if she was really making a difference as a crime-fighter, if she might do more good by directing her talents elsewhere.
Mr. Seavey's first reason for wanting Barbara to resume the Batgirl role almost qualifies for the Women in Refrigerators List: he wants to initiate a major life change to a female character to produce a desired effect on a male character.
I keep hearing people object to the creation of Oracle because of the Fridge Listing of Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke. Sure, Babs's crippling is classic Fridge List material. That was Alan Moore's script -- and while it set the stage for the introduction of Oracle, it was NOT her origin.
Barbara Gordon's recreation of herself as the Oracle was the work of John Ostrander, and it was as far from the Fridge List as you can get. It pulled the character out of the shadows of the Established Male Dynastic Centerpiece, and made her a unique, exotic figure in her own right. It gave her her own story, in her own way.
Barbara Gordon was always a highly-intelligent character with a photographic memory. That was there from her introduction. Ostrander's genius was in using the crippling injury imposed by another writer to refocus the character on that intellect.
As a front-line fighter, Barbara was a B-List character, and her chosen nom de guerre insured that she'd remain there, as "Batman's Girl Sidekick". As Oracle, she's A-List. The idea of Barbara Gordon leading the Justice League only makes sense after 20 years of seeing her as Oracle. Batgirl was no leader, and showed no signs of developing into one. As a kick-fighter, she was playing catch-up to people with more training, more motivation, and more special "edges" than she would ever have. It took Osterander's re-emphasis of the character according to her unique strengths that allowed her to become the formidable presence she is today.
Taking that away from her would be crippling the character. Frankly, if Barbara got the use of her legs back (without time-travel trickery), I'd be utterly disappointed if she gave up being Oracle. She does far more good that way that she ever would as one more high-heeled boot to a bad guy's face.
(Okay, if she got healed and put the costume on again strictly because she was offered leadership of the JLA, I could buy it.
And you know what? "Oracle" only works as an ex-crimefighter. Putting some random person hospitalized by violence into the chair and behind the keyboard just doesn't have the emotional impact.
Finally... I'm hardly a fan of the school that insists that a superhero has to have some driving trauma, but I've got to admit, Oracle has a lot more solid motivation than the librarian who took a few judo classes and started crimefighting for fun.
Well said, Serpent.
ReplyDeleteAll good points. Mind you, every Batgirl since Barbara has been crap. So there's that.
ReplyDeleteI can't consider Oracle a "mistake" on DC's part. Barbara Gordon as Oracle is a far more interesting, original character than Barbara Gordon ever was as the Earth-One
ReplyDeleteTrue, to a point, but:
Let's also not forget- OH, IT PAINS ME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN ;) - That the Pre-Crisis Babs took once off her tights and retired as Batgirl, AND she did it to take her place IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.
From sidekick to Congresswoman. That's a beautiful, inspiring story, just as much, if not more so as the story of Oracle!
The fact is, I love Oracle. But the way she was crippled was spectacularly ill-concieved. Yes, it was a fridging, but beyond that... It was a sleazy, thuggish act that has become "a defining moment" for a supervillain that's been around since 1940.
As a rabid fan of the Clown Prince, it shocks me how much ill-will there is out there for such an iconic villain.
Where's the chorus of "JUST KILL THEM ALREADY, DAMMIT" for Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, hell, even Darkseid? I hear crickets... But Joker?
Oh, the chorus that keeps singing for his end. And I'm convinced it wouldn't be so strong a feeling if he hadn't crippled and stripped Babs, or even crowbarred the hated Jason... No villain needs albatrosses like that hanging around their necks, interfering with our ability to love them as we should...
So I'm rooting for you, Booster! For Joker AND for Barbara. They both need you, dammit!
Personally I think Geoff Johns is just on some kind of quest to erase Alan Moore's influence from DC Comics. First the Blackest Night Prophecy is being undone in Sinestro Corp War. Next the Earth 4 Watchman/Charlton Action Heroes are probably going to get killed in Arena or by Superman Prime. And lastly Barbara Gordon's injury will be undone. (And don't tell me that it would create continuity problems. Just have her walk again in the present but leave the Oracle history, just like Linda West came to term in the present thanks to Wally and Zoom's battle in the past but she remebered spending seven months post miscarriage.) Whew...
ReplyDeleteYour Obedient Serpent said:
ReplyDelete"Mr. Seavey's first reason for wanting Barbara to resume the Batgirl role almost qualifies for the Women in Refrigerators List: he wants to initiate a major life change to a female character to produce a desired effect on a male character."
To clarify: I used Batman purely as an example. I could just as easily have used Wonder Woman, Huntress, Black Canary, the entire JLA and JSA..."DC heroes" was what I wanted to stick, there, not "Batgirl." Yes, it does mean that Barbara Gordon would undergo a character development solely because of the way it impacts the DC universe as a whole, but that is, in fact, part and parcel of what being a character in the DC universe is about, whether male or female. I think Oracle is a crutch for lazy writers, and I would continue to think that if it was a paraplegic Dick Grayson.
And frankly, I think it's absurd to suggest that giving a character back the use of their legs, allowing them to experience the full range of physical activity that they'd been used to for their entire life, as an athlete and super-hero, is on the same level as murdering them and stuffing their mangled body into a refrigerator.
And furthermore, I don't think that Babs is more interesting as Oracle than as Batgirl. I think she is interesting as Oracle, but I liked her as a smart, successful woman who rose from librarian to Congresswoman while fighting crime on the side, and all solely out of altruism. Ostrander did a great job of recreating her, but I think he would have done a great job writing a Batgirl comic too, because Barbara Gordon is a good character.
"Personally I think Geoff Johns is just on some kind of quest to erase Alan Moore's influence from DC Comics. First the Blackest Night Prophecy is being undone in Sinestro Corp War. Next the Earth 4 Watchman/Charlton Action Heroes are probably going to get killed in Arena or by Superman Prime. And lastly Barbara Gordon's injury will be undone. (And don't tell me that it would create continuity problems. Just have her walk again in the present but leave the Oracle history, just like Linda West came to term in the present thanks to Wally and Zoom's battle in the past but she remebered spending seven months post miscarriage.) Whew..."
ReplyDeleteWell fwiw, Moore thought Killing Joke sucked too so I don't think he'd be too bothered if it fell out of continuity. Also, with regards the reference to "Watchmen" in Arena? If you mean the poster image where DKR Batman is slapping Rorsach (or however you spell it), that was just artistic license. I don't think either are in Arena.
Quoth the zhinxy:
ReplyDeleteLet's also not forget- OH, IT PAINS ME THAT SO MANY PEOPLE SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN ;) - That the Pre-Crisis Babs took once off her tights and retired as Batgirl, AND she did it to take her place IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.
To my dismay -- since I'd read and enjoyed those stories when they originally came out I HAD forgotten. On the other claw, I'd already rambled on longer than the original post.
That example, however, does demonstrate my thesis: Barbara Gordon does more good when she's NOT Batgirl.
As for your impassioned defense of Mr. J: the question of "why doesn't the Batman just kill this mass-murdering clown?" was significant enough that it was a key plot point in Miller's DKR, well BEFORE the two incidents you described.
Mr. Seavy: While I do see your side of the argument, I think that the "crutch" of Oracle reflects the ever-increasing importance of information technology over the last 20 years -- and particularly over the last decade, when Oracle went from being "useful" to "indispensable". Having someone in the background running data checks makes too much sense; see any episode of Criminal Minds. If Oracle wasn't the DCU's Super Ultimate Hero Hacker, Alfred would be sitting in the Batcave Googling, and the much-abhorred JLA Monitor Duty would be a far more integral part of their adventures.
I think including Black Canary on your list is unfair, though. I don't disagree that lazy writers mishandle Oracle -- however, I think having her as a regular in a team book like Suicide Squad or leading a team of her own is the appropriate use for the character.
(That said, I do miss the Bronze Age Batman sitting at the Bat-Computer with his cowl thrown back. More than anything, that's MY Batman.)
Anonymous: don't forget Johns's plan to reveal that Swamp Thing really IS Alec Holland, and has been all along!
I think that Batgirl's ascension to Congress is a wonderful, inspiring story -- but one of little use in a super-hero universe. As Oracle, Babs is in the thick of things. As Congresswoman Gordon, she'd be hard-pressed to appear in many stories -- and I doubt DC'd publish Two-Fisted Legislation Comics just for her and the original Black Condor.
ReplyDeleteIn the vocabulary of superhero comics, Oracle is a MUCH bigger deal than U.S. Representative.
Well said, Rob.
ReplyDeleteAnd I should add that a side-career as Oracle would be much less of an obstacle to Congresswoman Gordon than a sideline as Batgirl. In fact, it'd probably make her a much better Congressperson than most of her colleagues...
It was significant in the text of DKR and other comics, as it SHOULD be. ;) But so much hate out there in the real world of fandom for an iconic villain is an interesting phenomenon. That's different from heroes in the text angsting over what to do with their archenemies, which is right and proper and expected!
ReplyDeleteAnd I've had it up to here with BAAAABBS! JAAAAASON! angst. New continuity, please? Can we move on here?
And MY point was that she did more good as Barbara Gordon than as Batgirl, so it's not surprising to me that you found it supported that argument. :)
I think she should be crippled, in fact. Just change it so that she's crippled in a way that gives the mythos less baggage, in a way that's less objectionable.
You're right--Black Canary was a bad choice. It makes _sense_ that she gives out information to her team, the people she organized, assembled, and leads. It makes less sense that she's on-call 24/7 every time Firestorm wants to know something about Gorilla Grodd. :)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Caleb. I think Rip Hunter is using this to try to teach Booster a lesson... Booster trying anyways just means he's being extra stubborn in trying to save his friend.
ReplyDeleteAs for Geoff Johns's large reaching plans... Katz is cowriting this as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jurgens has some unofficial creative imput as well (he did create Booster after all). So if they've got some kind of large scale plan is a triumvirate of evil, not just Johns. LOL
The Oracle of Earth-3 is called "Ms. SQL". Or maybe she's "Informix", time-traveling Gaul prophetess.
ReplyDeleteBe glad I don't have a joke for "Sybase", but Sybase just isn't funny.