In fact, I think it had quite a large (potentially spoilery) impact on the Batfamily.
Yes, quite a large impact...
Yeah, not the impact you were looking for, but still...
I have to say, though, she's reminding me of the 90s Huntress, who, despite being on the outs with Batman and everyone else in Gotham remained a hero. And now she's been falling in line, and the position of "Batfamily Black Sheep" is open, and Cassandra was ready to give up "Adoring Daughter" anyway.
It could work out very well, actually. I'll be picking this up now (I'd previously decided against it after issue 148) to see the whole story. At the very least, there looks like seriously interesting metatext and symbolism going on.
But for now, I just have one more thing to say about this:
On behalf of Wonder Woman, Superman, Huntress, Catwoman, and Sanderson Hawkins --
Actually...when you think about the monologue...
ReplyDelete"But I don't need Batman to tell me once you cross the killing line you never come back."
It kind of sounds like Tim's not stopping her so much because *he* disapproves but because he doesn't want to have Batman bitch at him.
That amuses me. :-P
Geez, Cassandra really is looking more like a Generic Asian Villain. It's sad, since she seemed like a really interesting, complex character during her Batgirl run. Now she's Tim's Jason Todd, right down to the Bat-Indignation and the willingness to kill for justice.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about the metatextual references, though. Being a member of the Bat family automatically gives you plenty of an audience that cares about you...
Kali -- I'm not seeing it...
ReplyDeleteJLG1 -- Well, I'm going to wait to analyze until the actual issue comes out, but on the surface it seems like this fight represents the divided Batfan reaction to Spoiler's death. Cassie being the section that is sickened and angered by it and Tim the section that isn't bothered.
Unfortunately the section that is sickened and angered by Spoiler's death is also the section that is sickened and angered by having Cassie turned into a villain. That dunk in the Lazarus pit seems to have made her awfully chatty.
ReplyDeleteAs I stated above, just because someone's killing a villain doesn't mean they've been turned into a villain. I don't give a damn what Batman or Robin say about it.
ReplyDelete"As I stated above, just because someone's killing a villain doesn't mean they've been turned into a villain."
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly glad you aren't on the police force.
I have to disagree with you here as well, Ragnell. I believe your basic training may be influencing your mindset here, but there are many of us who believe that taking a life IS an experience from which one never psychically recovers, and in comics it does serve to blur the line between hero and villain. We're inclined to believe that a hero always, ALWAYS finds a way to defeat a villain without killing that villain. If a hero kills, she or he becomes (at least in my eyes) an anti-hero, and anti-heroes are not very entertaining for me to read.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't quite what I meant but I do agree that killing someone is crossing a line that cannot be uncrossed. I don't believe that it automatically damns you forever (depending on the circumstances), and although Marvel is quite happy to have characters that routinely kill, DC generally takes the attitude that only villains do it - hence the fuss over Wonder Woman lately.
ReplyDeleteOnly exception I can think of is Manhunter. And from the little of this story we can see, we get Cassie shooting an unarmed man lying on the ground tied up. If that's not code for "this is a bad person" I don't know what is.
Scipio -- :)
ReplyDeleteElayne -- I'm not saying it's not a life-changing or psychologically damaging experience, I'm saying it's not an immediate step over the threshold to evil.
Marionette -- Superman killed 3 depowered (with Gold Kryptonite, which is permanent depowerment that he kenw was permanent) Kryptonian criminals while he was at full power, Huntress spent ten years fighting with Batman over her willingness to kill, Catwoman killed in revenge, Manhunter sought out a man who was acquited, and people are still arguing over whether or not Max still posed a credible threat while tied up. All of these guys are still clearly treated as good guys by the writers.
And we're looking at preview pages, which are sometimes designed to mislead in the most controversal direction. I'm not ready to say, based on events shown entirely through Robin's viewpoint right now that Cassie's turning evil. It's looks damning, but DC seems to have long since abandoned the "Absolutely no killing ever" policy for even their major heroes.
I don't mind telling you, this storyline has caused much angst in my house. We gave Robin a chance on the strength of the writer, and Pete is so literally sickened by the implication of turning Cassandra into a villain, that I may have to end up sneaking the Morrison Batman books into the house. He wants nothing to do with the Bat-verse if they follow through with this. I'm more annoyed with it because it reeks of sloppy writing and "shock value for the sake of shock value" changes to a character that was perceived as "expendable" by the editorial department at DC.
ReplyDeleteI still think we're being tricked into seeing one thing, when something else entirely is going on. This whole thing with cassandra wanted to shoot a seemingly helpless David Cain feels exactly like the story they did when Tim and Cass first went to Bludhaven and teamed up against the Penguin, with Tim being forced to shoot Cass to prove that he really did "beat" her.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is, I really hope I'm right, because I think Beechen can be a good writer for this book, once he gets past what seems to be an editorially mandated story, and I'd hate to have to drop the book out of frustration over this turn of events.
I do find it interesting that Cassandra - even in the final issues of Batgirl - was the only member of the Bat-family that really acknowledged the loss of Stephanie.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, given what happened to the short-lived Robin, Cassie's anger at Bruce finally makes sense to me.
I'm with CalvinPitt, I'm reserving judgement until I'm absolutely sure we really saw Cain die in this book. The dip in the attitude adjustment non-withstanding, there is no way I can really buy Cassie as a murderer, justified or not. So much of her early run was devoted toward her permanent chagrin to having taken a man's life as a child, that it is incomprehesible that she would change so drastically. Read "No One Dies Tonight" again. Even her characterization in JL Elite reinforced this idea. She went nearly catonic when she almost killed Hawkgirl and her declaration to Coldcast, "I want you to know that I'm not a murderer". I holding my breath and waiting... righteous anger will follow if I'm wrong about this...
ReplyDeleteBut this isn't about Spoiler. The last issue made it plenty clear that Cassandra goes on a lunatic murder spree simply because she found out something Bronze Tiger already told to her. She killed this "Annalea" out of petty JEALOUSY!
ReplyDeleteThis is shit writing by a no-talent hack who hasn't read a Batgirl comin in his life, pure and simple, and there is no way to whitewash it. If this character is ever to be used in a worthwhile story again, this arc needs to be retconned away first.
It's doubly a real pity, because the "Cassandra takes over LoA" idea would have had some merit, if only the character in question actually was, and acted like, Cassandra.
(And what the hell is this Tim of Steel who subdues David Cain easily and gets shots in on both Cassandra and Shiva? This reads like bad fanfiction.)
"All I can say is, I really hope I'm right, because I think Beechen can be a good writer for this book, once he gets past what seems to be an editorially mandated story, and I'd hate to have to drop the book out of frustration over this turn of events."
ReplyDeleteImagine this same story, except with some random new villain in place of Cassandra. Would you call it a good story? I wouldn't. Even with the atrocious handling of Cass and David Cain aside, this story is just your everyday boring, stupid superhero fluff full of painful cliches and internal inconsistencies. I don't see one line of good writing in this garbage.
Sanderson Hawkins?
ReplyDeletePlease enlighten me here...
Actually after reading Robin 151 I have to say my earlier assessment was right. While there are intriguing things going on, it's just not worth my money.
ReplyDeletenotintheface -- Pre-Crisis, the followup story to the "Creature From the Velvet Cage" and the basis for his still having geomancer powers after being "cured." He killed some bad guy directly after being killed with an earthquake that Wes explained away as an "After-effect" of his powers.
Everyone else -- Appreciate your thoughts and discussion. Keep me posted on how this turns out.
notintheface -- Pre-Crisis, the followup story to the "Creature From the Velvet Cage" and the basis for his still having geomancer powers after being "cured." He killed some bad guy directly after being killed with an earthquake that Wes explained away as an "After-effect" of his powers.
ReplyDeleteActually it was the CitVC follow-up, "Whatever Happened to Sandy the Golden Boy" in DC Comics Presents 47. He actually has quite a death toll in that issue actually. The bad guy, known as the Shatterer, was controlling Sandy and used his power to destroy the hospital (where the Shatterer had been a doctor and Sandy-still as a monster- was under study), everyone within was killed.
Then, when reverted to human, the Shatterer attacks one last time and ends up squished. It's pretty much portrayed as a panicked accident, but it does count.
Finally there's the original death of Johnny Sorrow in the flashback in JSA 18. Wirepoon + dimension shifting device = ash. :-)
Admittedly they're all "accidental" (the Shatterer was kind of debatable)...but it's quite a list, all things considered. :-)
(And what the hell is this Tim of Steel who subdues David Cain easily and gets shots in on both Cassandra and Shiva? This reads like bad fanfiction.)
ReplyDeleteThe shots in on Cassandra were surprising, but Tim's fought Shiva before. In fact, in the "Hero Reborn" miniseries, she took a strong interest in his training. He's got good hits on her there (with a whistling staff) and actually beat her (with the help of a super-drug) in the ongoing. It's not surprising that he got a few shots in.
Subduing Cain and fighting Cassandra like that was a surprise, but who knows what he, Bruce and Dick were actually doing in Budapest. And he's had a lot more Titans experience since fighting Shiva last time. So it seems plausible to me. (I thought Cassandra seemed like she was holding back, and Cain did spend a lot of time inactive in a cell...)
Now if he'd *won* against Shiva/Cass I'd be pissed.
Ugh. This was just awful.
ReplyDeleteBatgirl 72 - Cassandra finds out she has a "brother" that Cain trained. She doesn't care. In fact, she knows that Cain trained a lot of kids. She lets her borther kill her, because she refuses to use lethal force against him.
Robin 148 (ONLY TWO MONTHS LATER) - Adam Beechen gets orders to have Cassandra turn evil. After two whole second he goes "Hey, her name is Cain, I'll have her turn evil because she's murderously jealous of a sibling!" Cassandra is SHOCKED to discover that she has a sister! This is the most earth-shattering revelaiton ever to her! It drives her completely nuts, and she goes and kills that sister, and kills her father, and kills Nyssa! And then she tries to convince Tim to join her by saying "Batman is happy Spoiler and your dad are dead, it makes him easier to control you". Because that makes SO much more sense than having her mention Bludhaven. You all remember Bludhaven, right? The city Cass and Tim protected? The one that got blown up?
Oh, and Batman taught Cassandra how to read and write in navajo. Guess those stories about her not being able to read never happened.
Oh, and Lynx was alive at the begining. Because nothing we read in Batgirl actually happened, according to Adam Beechen.
Oh, right, I had a point. Forgot. Sorry.
ReplyDeletesavecass.com