Well, I'd have been satisfied letting the conversation fizzle out on this earlier post, but one last commenter showed up with some rather unusual ideas. He seems much more interested in talking about Harlequin romance being unfriendly to men right now, which would be fine except this is my blog and I don't know a damned thing about Harlequin romance books. I really don't care about Harlequin romance books, I want to read comic books. He also has some interesting views on what an "independent publisher" is, along with a rather questionable resume. I'd be inclined to just ignore him entirely, except his argument had an underlying idea that needs to be addressed.
His first comment:
The Big Two have no reason to publish shoujo-esque manga unless they wish to lose their core, primarily male fan base.After we set him straight that we didn't want DC to market Manga, he continues:
Ragnell, the same arguments you made can be applied to any number of industries. Yet no one is suggesting that Harlequin market towards males. Why? What is the fear about marketing to men?So I replied that I knew very little about Harlequin, and wouldn't argue against a male romance reader who suggested that they could be better marketed for men. I never once said that the way Harlequin practices business or writes books is okay in the least. I simply said, I knew nothing about the subject. He comes back:
Various companies appeal to certain markets regardless of whether people outside those markets also enjoy the stories. You seem in favor of it when the market is largely female. That’s quite hypocritical, and honestly you lose the support of male fans by doing that.
The commenter in question is from a blog I found by way of his linking to Girl-Wonder.org. I'm going to assume that he's aware of their complaints -- Stephanie Brown's treatment in particular -- as well as the ones I've brought up on this blog. In the comment thread he posted on, I had suggesting marketing a few superhero comics where women could find them, and having covers which were friendly to female readers.
Yet, and I believe this because he keeps bringing it up, he seems to feel that if something was done to make the superhero comics industry friendlier to female readers, that somehow male readers would be driven away.
As though male readers feed on the degradation and humiliation of female characters. As though, female characters must be disposable and never once in the spotlight for male readers to feel comfortable. As though bad art portraying practically pornagraphic images are what is necessary to sell to a male reader.
See, I simply must disagree. I very much doubt my father or my brother would be bothered by the suggested improvements in their entertainment. I've watched TV and discussed books and movies with the men I work with, and while they enjoy raunchy pictures found online and in their magazines, I've yet to see one of them flee from a story with a respectful portrayal of a woman. In the comic book store, when I point out that a female character got shafted in a storyline and describe a better way to handle her, most of the men in the store either agree that they would read a story about her, or come up with a better idea. I'm willing to bet a lot of Birds of Prey readers are male, as well as readerrs of Rucka's Wonder Woman and other stories that have "gotten it right" and would probably have been widely enjoyed by a female audience were they marketed to them. I've yet to see a man give up buying manga or name because he's seen it in a bookstore with female customers perusing the shelf. On the whole, I'd have that I have a high opinion of the male comic-book reading public, and I believe that good stories would be read by readers of both genders.
So, I have a question to ask that commenter, and anyone who agrees with him -- Why do you have such a poor opinion of men?
57 comments:
Hear hear. As a male (a red-blooded American straight guy at that) one of the things that always gets on my nerves when people go, "Well, it's okay for comics to be this way because they're marketed to men!" is the implication that, as a man, I somehow want my entertainment to be sexist and exploitative. I don't know who they're making the current Supergirl series for, but it sure ain't me.
"Harlequin"
Man. I love that word.
I don't agree with the above comments, with your antagonist I mean, but I do disagree a lot of the time with what you single out as "good stories."
You will never convince me that either Greg Rucka or Gail Simone are good writers. I'm all for well written female characters and just raising the bar generally in terms of quality, but whenever I hear Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman run or Birds of Prey singled out as being really good "pro-feminist" comics that we need more of I feel really let down. These are basically C-list writers. And I'm not for the promotion of mediocrity. I'm not trying to defend bad male "traditional" writers either, as far as I'm concerned C-listers of either gender are unacceptable. So, when I hear "feminist" contributions to "how this could be better" I get kind of turned off - because 99% of the time it just suggests a different approach that would be just as corny, just as moronic, but no better and it gets touted as a signifigant step forward.
Ragnell,
I'd like to apologize, for ever
bringing up the whole Harlequin
books idea. I had no idea that some guy could turn it into a rant AGAINST women. I mean, my whole
point, was that I consider Harlequin romances and the whole genre of "bodice rippers" to be pretty sexist anyway. There is a reason why they are called "bodice rippers". Guess what it is? If this guy wants to go out and read
romances, then all power to him.
Oh, and whle we are establishing
our level of geekiness...I bought
Giant-size X-men at the age of
15. New. Off the spinner rack in
a drug store. Haw!
I'd like to apologize, for ever bringing up the whole Harlequin books idea. I had no idea that some guy could turn it into a rant AGAINST women.
Well, it’s nice to see my gender being attacked. It’s not unexpected. I mean, your friends already attacked and mocked me for raising awareness about the sexual abuse of boys, so thanks!
So, I have a question to ask that commenter, and anyone who agrees with him -- Why do you have such a poor opinion of men?
Ragnell, that’s a strawman and a poorly constructed one.
The comparison between the two industries is fair because they both appeal to specific genders and both fail to market to the opposite gender. Dismissing the point because you “know very little about it” is really no different than saying you don’t see it or you don’t care. Isn’t this the same complaint being brought against males?
Yes, I understand that no male characters are ever shafted in comics. I understand that only female characters are treated as disposable. I understand that having male leads makes female readers feel uncomfortable. I understand it’s wrong to tell a story from a male perspective and that no such story could ever be considered “good.” But the point isn’t that males run from strong female characters. The point is that the kinds of stories told matter to the audience. That’s why shoujo manga outsells American female-driven comics. Could Sailor Moon work in the Big Two? Yes, but it wouldn’t draw a male audience if it were told in its original form. It’s not the concept. It’s the execution of the concept. Knowing your intended audience affects the kind of story you tell. That’s Writing 101. I'm sorry if you don't understand that.
Again, attacking me doesn’t change the validity of my questions. There are plenty of independent publishers out there and the indie industry is perfect for market building. If there is a market for female-driven superheroes, why aren’t female characters jumping at the chance to build up that market without the Big Two’s help? I really do wish you’d address that question instead of dodging it.
Wow, I didn't realize that comment thread kept on going like that.
Dear Blogger, please introduce comments rss feeds like WordPress does.
Just noticed the title of the thread. Wow... Well, at least you admitted you hate males.
Yes, I understand that no male characters are ever shafted in comics. I understand that only female characters are treated as disposable. I understand that having male leads makes female readers feel uncomfortable. I understand it’s wrong to tell a story from a male perspective and that no such story could ever be considered “good.”
Speaking of "strawman" arguments...
Well, it is good to be able to debate this with someone actually here. So I will ask-
How SPECIFICALLY would having, say, more female heroes and fewer cases where they're treated as disposable or sexually assaulted drive male readers away?
Knowing your intended audience affects the kind of story you tell. That’s Writing 101.
Isn't that kind of the point? That there really isn't an audience of men who require women to be beaten and treated as second-class citizens in their superhero comics, and that it's shortsighted and self-defeating for creators and publishers to assume otherwise?
That, you know, if you just fixed things here and there, you could sell stuff to men AND women, and everybody wins?
You know, I never thought of comics as male-oriented when I was a young kid. I certainly never heard that from my parents, who bought them for me. By the time I hit high school I knew there weren't that many girls who read them--there weren't that many kids who read them by that age--but I did, and my best friend was a rabid X-Men fan, so I never felt particularly excluded from the fan base. Never got a weird look at the newsstand I bought them at (hey, I was giving them money!) Who knew?
As for the Harlequin romance argument, it's not entirely off base, but there is an existing fan base of female comic fans. If there's a similar male fan base for romance novels, they might want to look into it.
(And all I know about Harlequin romances is that my grandma used to read them--she liked them because there were no surprises. This was a woman who couldn't even take the level of tension in Murder She Wrote...)
Evan- I don’t defend opinions I don’t hold. You’ll have to pose that question to someone who holds that opinion.
Steve- What books are you reading that require women to be beaten and treated as second-class citizens in their superhero comics? What books treat women as nameless, faceless henchmen to be beaten, maimed or killed without a second thought?
Just to clear up a point of confusion, is you issue with comics that there are few female characters or that few stories are told from the female perspective? Likewise, what is your opinion about creating more female characters in the indie industry? Do you think female fans would buy those books or are they only interested in established characters?
You are arguing that making superhero comics more female friendly would alienate male readers. What I'm describing is what would help make superhero comics more female friendly.
As for your question to Steve- Identity Crisis, War Games, All Star Batman are a few examples which come to mind.
Toy Soldier, you won't defend opinions you don't hold, but you expect others to.
Yes, I understand that no male characters are ever shafted in comics. I understand that only female characters are treated as disposable. I understand that having male leads makes female readers feel uncomfortable. I understand it’s wrong to tell a story from a male perspective and that no such story could ever be considered “good.”
Is this your own... interesting idea, or are you seriously asserting that this a common idea among people who think comics should be more women friendly?
Elizabeth – The idea isn’t any less… interesting than asserting that the reverse is a common idea among people who like comics with male-driven superhero stories.
Evan – My argument is that stories that appeal to female readers don’t typically don’t draw male readers. You’re asserting that a book can attract a male audience and yet turn off female readers. Can’t the reverse be true?
As for your other comment, Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, War Games, E is for Extinction, the Punisher, Avengers Dissembled and Wolverine: Origins come to mind for fine examples of males being treated horribly. And let’s not forget Jason Todd and Bucky. Are you suggesting that degradation and murder are acceptable when done to boys and men, but not to females?
By the way, what is your opinion about creating more female characters in the indie industry? Do you think female fans would buy those books or are they only interested in established characters?
As someone who enjoys "comics with male-driven superhero stories," I have frankly no idea what point you're trying to get across.
So toy soldier, is your argument that romance comics and the like can more or less shut their doors and ignore that male readers exist, while comics get labeled mysoginistic for doing pretty much the same thing but with the genders reversed? Or am I misinterpreting what you're trying to say?
What exactly are the criteria here for determining male-driven or male-appealing vs. female-driven or female-appealing? I mean if someone's going to assert that men don't read female-appealing stories, isn't it important to establish what those are and to point out where anyone suggested that superhero comics be made into that?
To put it another way, it's clear that mainstream superhero comics, as-is, are appealing to female readers. If they weren't, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Furthermore, they are more appealing to female readers (if we judge appeal according to dollars spent) than supposedly "female-friendly" indy comics, by and large. In fact, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that there are more female readers buying the top-selling superhero titles than there are people in general buying most indy titles.
All of which says to me that basically, male-appealing comics and female-appealing comics are for the most part exactly the same titles.
toy soldier said...
Just noticed the title of the thread. Wow... Well, at least you admitted you hate males.
Ummm...no. That's not what the title means at all. Please go through Ragnell's blog a bit more to notice what the whole Monday Misogny/Misandry thing is all about.
toy soldier said...
As for your other comment, Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, War Games, E is for Extinction, the Punisher, Avengers Dissembled and Wolverine: Origins come to mind for fine examples of males being treated horribly. And let’s not forget Jason Todd and Bucky. Are you suggesting that degradation and murder are acceptable when done to boys and men, but not to females?
Ummm..
Identity Crisis -- the whole story starts with the murder of Sue Dibny whom we also find out was raped in the past. The rapist's memory was restored and as a consequence he was made more powerful.
Infinite Crisis -- Jade gets killed as a plot device to empower Kyle Rayner. Pantha's head gets knocked off. Yes, a LOT of other people died male and female. I know.
War Games -- see http://www.girl-wonder.org/ Plus, Jason Todd is alive and well thanks to EmoBoy Prime AND Bucky we now know never died. Did they suffer? Sure. Are they dead? Not anymore. Women in Refrigerators. In fact, after coming back both Jason and Bucky are much stronger and more capable than ever before. Like dying was just a bump in their road to becoming a man. And yes, I know lots of gangsters and Orpheus died but none of them were totured for their part in War Games and then posthumously held responsible for their own death.
Avengers Dissassembled -- it was revealed that it was all the fault of the Scarlet Witch. Yes, Ant-Man died. The She-Hulk, normally a fun-loving level headed character was turned into a raging monster and destroyed the Vision.
I can't comment on the others as I've never read them.
Toy soldier: What is so wrong with stories that will appeal to a broad range of people that regardless of gender, race and so on? Is it so hard to do that we shouldn't even bother?
By the way, what is your opinion about creating more female characters in the indie industry? Do you think female fans would buy those books or are they only interested in established characters?
Superhero fans of either gender tend to gravitate toward established franchises; much of the appeal of the whole thing comes from shared universes, rich histories, and diverse creative teams. These are not things you can replicate from the ground up with an indie line. It's been tried unsuccessfully a number of times by now.
Elizabeth – As someone who enjoys “female friendly” comics, I have frankly no idea what point you’re trying to get across, either. I assume by “female friendly” you mean stories told from a female perspective, but I do not understand the use of code words if that is the meaning.
David – Yes, but more specifically that the act is being condon