tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post115523331975822311..comments2024-01-02T09:18:23.893-05:00Comments on Written World: Crossposted from Comic-BlocRagnellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155411692417963042006-08-12T15:41:00.000-04:002006-08-12T15:41:00.000-04:00I had similar thoughts about Vicki Vale's abilitie...I had similar thoughts about Vicki Vale's abilities.Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06305755944694741335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155401929040632722006-08-12T12:58:00.000-04:002006-08-12T12:58:00.000-04:00With regards to the Frank Miller thing: From readi...With regards to the Frank Miller thing: <BR/><BR/>From reading the pre-release interviews, it seems like he wants ALL STAR to be a kind of "babes of the DCU" calendar with as much "fan service" as will fit, which is sexist or at least strongly promotes the objectification of the female form in pop art. But that said, it looks like (in his own immature and arguably ineffective way) he is trying to write these "babes" as well rounded characters. Vicki Vale as a character does not seem to bad. Yes she did the whole "I'm going on a date..." thing but she also stood up to the cops and followed her story lead, etc. She is not one to be intimidated. And Black Canary is obviously meant to be a "strong" person. <BR/><BR/>OK maybe the writing sucks but not necessarily because it's demeaning. But the art, which Miller does seem to have a hand in, is clearly meant to serve a different purpose (as Tekanji pointed out). How he internally justifies this approach is a mystery to me - maybe he assumes all good women should be sexy and responsive to his needs?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155345058775412382006-08-11T21:10:00.000-04:002006-08-11T21:10:00.000-04:00Yep, I'm that kind of crazy. :PYep, I'm that kind of crazy. :PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155307806347160052006-08-11T10:50:00.000-04:002006-08-11T10:50:00.000-04:00Thanks Darko! So she came out of the Bulked Up, E...Thanks Darko! So she came out of the Bulked Up, Evil and Talking mess? No wonder I didn't remember her. So wow, all this discussion based on the death of a character so minor that regular DC readers like me don't even remember her?Elaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009119466346396986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155299527584880022006-08-11T08:32:00.000-04:002006-08-11T08:32:00.000-04:00I may get flayed for this, but I didn't find anyth...I may get flayed for this, but I didn't find anything so bad about Miller's script lines re: ol' girl's booty.<BR/><BR/>He suggested an ass shot and said the character had a great ass.<BR/><BR/>Comics are FULL of "Soul Train angles" that highlight the best aspects of the characters' bodies.<BR/><BR/>In fact, after reviewing the definition of "sexism," I reject the claim that Miller's comment was an example of it.Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06305755944694741335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155291459159432662006-08-11T06:17:00.000-04:002006-08-11T06:17:00.000-04:00Derek -- Well, I'm not sure how MOC will turn out,...Derek -- Well, I'm not sure how MOC will turn out, but thinking of the Bulleteer I'm not sure using sexism to comment on sexism technically counts as sexism.<BR/><BR/>(And Miller screwed the pooch on his commentary excuse when he let the sexism bleed through in his script descriptions. I cite Beau Smith's WW/Xena crossover script, where they had a swimming scene, and a fight where the heroines switched clothes -- and it was a point that Ares was being a sexist pig during this, but the script was written professionally.)Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155259729849040932006-08-10T21:28:00.000-04:002006-08-10T21:28:00.000-04:00I have a question, if I may.Can sexism be intentio...I have a question, if I may.<BR/><BR/>Can sexism be intentional but not malicious?<BR/><BR/>To me, the Mother of Champions character introduced in 52 falls under this category. It'd be pretty hard to make the argument that she <I>isn't</I> a sexist character, but I felt that that was the <I>point</I>, you know?<BR/><BR/>If you can be intentionally sexist, but not malicious, is that acceptable? Or rather, would that be an acceptable defense to accusations of sexism?<BR/><BR/>(I wanted to make sure to bring that up because you know that there would be someone saying "But, you see, what Miller was doing with Vicki Vale was a <I>commentary</I>...")Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14326906935557548236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155258925224821432006-08-10T21:15:00.000-04:002006-08-10T21:15:00.000-04:00(Tek -- Shh, it would hurt my point :))Well, it di...(Tek -- Shh, it would hurt my point :))<BR/><BR/>Well, it didn't help, he just got more defensive (and stopped spellchecking).<BR/><BR/>Still, it's kind of fun, especially given how crazy he drove me in that Survey thread.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155250202448748142006-08-10T18:50:00.000-04:002006-08-10T18:50:00.000-04:00Good Lord, that thread...it's like Toy Soldier all...Good Lord, that thread...it's like Toy Soldier all over again...Dorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14754097613320749614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155249774746073952006-08-10T18:42:00.000-04:002006-08-10T18:42:00.000-04:00I think it was an excellent response. A little min...I think it was an excellent response. A little minor, itty, bitty nitpick, though. <BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><I>Actually, I can't think of an instance where I've believed a moment of sexism in comics to be intentional or malicious</I><BR/><BR/>Frank Miller. If nothing else, the ASBR script shows that he both intentionally objectifies women, and does it in a malicious fashion. <BR/><BR/>No, it's not him thinking, "Today I'll be maliciously sexist!" but rather that he intentionally objectifies women, and does it in such a "these women are here for our wank material" way that I can't <I>not</I> feel that malice is directed towards my gender.<BR/><BR/>But, anyway, for trying to make your point to the poster, it's possible that even a passing mention of Miller would derail the point you were trying to make. <BR/><BR/>And, let me say again, it was a good one. Very fair, I think, very gentle, but still firm on the importance of, at the very least, asking the question, "Is there sexism here?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155244842130187752006-08-10T17:20:00.000-04:002006-08-10T17:20:00.000-04:00I don't know how you have the tolerance to deal wi...I don't know how you have the tolerance to deal with people like this. When someone interprets pointing out <I>trends</I> of sexism in writing as "blanket accusations" of sexism ... That's the point where I give up and save my sanity. :P I have a ton of respect for your level of patience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155241872525250202006-08-10T16:31:00.000-04:002006-08-10T16:31:00.000-04:00re: "What do you think? Effective, or cause for mo...re: <B>"What do you think? Effective, or cause for more defensiveness?"</B><BR/><BR/>You effectively made your point, if that's what you're asking.<BR/><BR/>As to whether it'll sink into the right brains and <I>stick</I>, is another question.<BR/><BR/>As far as defensiveness is concerned, I don't think your response (based solely on what you posted here) seemed too reactionary. I see no reason why a reasonable, rational human-being would react to it with defensiveness... unless he wasn't dismissing all claims of sexism out-of-hand.<BR/><BR/>In other words: Ya done gud.Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06305755944694741335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155236288145451972006-08-10T14:58:00.000-04:002006-08-10T14:58:00.000-04:00ARGH. Typos, typos, typos...I meant to say..."......ARGH. Typos, typos, typos...<BR/>I meant to say...<BR/><BR/>"...comicbloc link, BUT I'm..."<BR/>and <BR/>"...no chance IN hell..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155234809640848242006-08-10T14:33:00.000-04:002006-08-10T14:33:00.000-04:00I found your post to be very well-written and care...I found your post to be very well-written and carefully worded. It is clear you put a lot of thought into your argument.<BR/><BR/>However...<BR/><BR/>I'm only judging this person from the few posts I read following your comicbloc link, and I'm fairly confident that there is no chance and hell you will get a comparable response. I can see why you reactively take the opposing side to this guy even if you agree with him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155234517885350662006-08-10T14:28:00.000-04:002006-08-10T14:28:00.000-04:00I totally give up. Who the heck is Pantha? Wasn'...I totally give up. Who the heck is Pantha? Wasn't that the name of a character in Thundercats? I didn't watch a lot of cartoons in the '80s...Elaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009119466346396986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1155234150182127802006-08-10T14:22:00.000-04:002006-08-10T14:22:00.000-04:00Your post is eminently reasonable, to my thinking....Your post is eminently reasonable, to my thinking. Any defensiveness arising therefrom won't have been the result of a considered reading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com