tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post114128836133905515..comments2024-01-02T09:18:23.893-05:00Comments on Written World: Seeking SymbolismRagnellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141477509624481012006-03-04T08:05:00.000-05:002006-03-04T08:05:00.000-05:00No one's debating the fact that these characters a...No one's debating the fact that these characters are the result of another person's blood sweat and tears. <BR/><BR/>But we're not discussing reviewing the talent and skill of the creator of the work in question. We're talking about examining the fictional constructs <B>themselves</B>, the symbolism as it shows through the plot and the character that we are reading. We're not only looking at intentional behaviors, but things that were very likely put in there without realizing it, and characters that have passed many many hands. We're taking into account the sum total of the efforts of writers, artists, editors, <B>and</B> our own experiences.<BR/><BR/>Yes, we are treating them as "real" for the sake of this exercise. Because to pull back the curtain and examine the motives of the creator has inherent problems:<BR/><BR/>1) Suspension of Disbelief is shattered, and the fictional construct isn't coherent anymore. It's just a collection of words and lines on a apge. The spark of life that the creator put there is lost when the creator's presence is revealed. As Kalinara puts it <I>"It's when you can react to the characters/situations as though some small part of you believes it's real...that's when you know the creative team has done a spectacular job."</I><BR/><BR/>2) It makes it easy to disregard the nuances of character that <I>those <B>very</B> creators that <B>you are defending</B> added to the character</I>, simply because we dislike the plot. This <B>invalidates</B> the contributions of those men and women moreso than simply leaving the curtain closed on "the Wizard" so that we can enjoy the fantasy that they have created and the realism they've brought to the character.<BR/><BR/>3) It leads us from analysis of a fictional character and how we apply it to our lives to analysis of the thoughts, motives, and personality of a real living <B>breathing</B> human being that we <I>have never met and have <B>no</B> right to judge</I> based on what we see in the symbolism. More often than not, when you analyze the symbolism, you analyze the creator of the symbolism and project your own life experiences onto them. And this leads to assumptions about the character of the creator, based on how their inadvertant symbolism is received by a reader. A few writers have gotten nasty labels because of this, "Misogynist" being the most common one hurled at them.<BR/><BR/>What I mean by spoiling the fun is #1 -- pulling back the curtain so that we see the real "Wizard" and not the carefully constructed facade that he wants us to buy into.<BR/><BR/>What David means by "the Excuse" is #2. Wherein someone reads a depiction of a character that they dislike, and so they <B>blame</B> the author or artist for not "Getting" the character. I fully admit, I do this myself (see the above post on Dr. Midnite). But it's a cheat on character analysis, and it's a sign of utter disrespect for the creator involved. <B>This</B> is where you are spitting in the face of the creator involved.<BR/><BR/>There's a time and a place for specifically analyzing the creator's efforts. When reviewing the book and commenting on the skill and talent of the creator; when looking at past works to determine whether a future project is worth picking up (Going over <I>JSA</I> and <I>The Flash</I> before buying <I>Green Lantern</I>); when analyzing the body of work as a creator (John Byrne's <I>Man of Steel</I> compared to Byrne's <I>Wonder Woman</I>); looking for recurring themes in a sinlge creator's work (Similar tone in Marz's <I>Witchblade</I> and <I>Green Lantern</I> narrations; Miller's handling of female characters; Evidence Grant Morrison still <A HREF="http://joelhunt.blogspot.com/2006/02/sloth-weekend-post-mortum.html" REL="nofollow">misses his cat</A>); when analyzing obvious, purposeful symbolism and metatext (All the stuff Johns is dropping in Infinite Crisis, Alan Moore's Promethea, most of Grant Morrison's stuff).<BR/>Delving into the deep symbolism of the story and the lessons and hidden messages relayed by characters, is probably not the nebst place for it, though. Because of #3. A lot of perfectly awful conclusions can easily and mistakenly be drawn about innocent people whom I have never meant. I do not want to confuse judging a fictional character with judging a real person. If you truly want me to get into the creators during a in-depth analysis of the symbolism in the writing, #3 is where I will invariably end up, I'm afraid. And that is not a fair place for me or them. Because I have never met this person and even if I have I am not qualified to judge their subconscious. Not only do I make this my own personal rule, I advise others to adopt it. "Don't Blame the Writer," as I've said numerous times on message boards. Usually, this is said in response to personal attacks against creators because they've taken the character in a direction that a fan doesn't like.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141413704008458892006-03-03T14:21:00.000-05:002006-03-03T14:21:00.000-05:00I don't think anyone's trying to say that we shoul...I don't think anyone's trying to say that we should forget that without the artist/author, the body of work wouldn't exist. We definitely appreciate the time and the effort and blood, sweat and tears that go into a final product.<BR/><BR/>But some of these characters are older than I am. Most really. Many have been around in some form or another since my grandparents were children. That means that in some sense, they're as much the property of the public as any of the guys and gals writing about them/drawing them. And we get proprietal. And I know when I spend once a month (at least) reading the adventures of a character, through various author's perspectives, I tend to get a little emotionally attached. I'm not much of a convention goer (not yet anyway), so I've never met any of the talented people behind the comics I love. The *characters* though, I get to see every month. So as awful as it probably sounds, the characters are, in a way, more real to me than the creators.<BR/><BR/>Which is maybe how it should be. That's how you know a product is truly good. When the content is what's remembered and not the face behind it. I mean, I have my favorite authors and artists whose take I love more than others, but in the end, it's the character that's the draw for me. And it's when you can react to the characters/situations as though some small part of you believes it's real...that's when you know the creative team has done a spectacular job.<BR/><BR/>Of course that doesn't mean that a particularly striking image/panel, an astounding plot twist, or amazingly resonant metaplot usage should go unremarked upon. :-) Good work should be recognized. But I also think the focus on character/plot over who did what is intended more as a compliment than an insult to the creative team.kalinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417686761943716312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141401884192556912006-03-03T11:04:00.000-05:002006-03-03T11:04:00.000-05:00"Authors and artists are what people use as an exc..."Authors and artists are what people use as an excuse for not reacting to the text!" You have GOT to be kidding. I'll say it more slowly for you, David. The. Text. Would. Not. EXIST. If. It. Were. Not. For. The. Author. And a comic wouldn't exist if it weren't for the writer and artist(s). Treating the characters as more real than the people writing and drawing them, THAT's the copout, THAT's the excuse for not reacting to the creativity and hard work these people put into making enjoyable stories. Every time a comic book review concentrates only on the characters and not the words or the pictures, it's not a comic book review at all, it's a partial review at best and then usually only of a plot. It's also, in my opinion, spitting in the face of people without whom, again, the story wouldn't exist. And I'm sorry, I consider that rude.Elaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009119466346396986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141386787105394242006-03-03T06:53:00.000-05:002006-03-03T06:53:00.000-05:00I totally get what you are saying, but then I'm th...I totally get what you are saying, but then I'm the kind of person who finds the symbolic depth of Electra Barbie hilarious so what do I know?Marionettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06985975073151200366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141385265257880872006-03-03T06:27:00.000-05:002006-03-03T06:27:00.000-05:00I can't think of much to add to this insightful gr...I can't think of much to add to this insightful group of thorough comments, even Elayne's comment got answered by David. Except thanks for the kind words, everyone. :)Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141352453124969622006-03-02T21:20:00.000-05:002006-03-02T21:20:00.000-05:00I think like you do, Ragnell! I meant to comment i...I think like you do, Ragnell! I meant to comment in support of you after your Comic Bloc post about Jade's honour, where you said "there is to be No Blaming of The Writer". Yeah! Those conversation enders are sadly familiar too...<BR/><BR/>Authors and artists are what people use as an excuse for not reacting to the text! And it's too easy to worry about what some guy said in an interview rather than what ended up on the page... but then some authors are easier to ignore when what they say has a very large disconnect, or... <B>changes</B> over time... the good old text will never change, and <I>your</I> changing is a big part of the fun!<BR/><BR/>Anyway: one of my friends once said of relay race fiction, that the characters are more realistic than mono-authored characters, because we see more aspects of their character, they have good days and bad days, just like us.<BR/><BR/>(Love your blog!)David Goldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12988083380983768496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141309772257094182006-03-02T09:29:00.000-05:002006-03-02T09:29:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.kalinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417686761943716312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141309666616305902006-03-02T09:27:00.000-05:002006-03-02T09:27:00.000-05:00Message boards are troublesome sometimes aren't th...Message boards are troublesome sometimes aren't they. :-)<BR/><BR/>But I agree with you about characters. The thing is, as much as the writers and artists bring them to us, there is power in the character itself. It's been a very long time since Superman was written by the original authors, or Batman by Bob Kane, but we all have this idea about what these characters are.<BR/><BR/>In a book, or a single owned propery like a manga, one can complain about the writer/artist...but when you've got a shared universe, there's really something special and powerful there. With a book, each reader can take different meanings from it, but really it's the author's portrayal that goes. With comics, both writers and readers all have their individual takes on the characters, each writer explores his or her own perspective of the character. And the thing is, instead of making it like a different character each time, the different aspects/expressions of the character feel like one, very three dimensional person.<BR/><BR/>Even one as recent as Kyle. You've got Marz's take of course, exploring how he is when he's new...an ordinary guy thrust into extraordinary situations. Winick's exploration of a maturing hero, finding his place even as Destiny has her own plans. Raab who writes a man at a loss, not precisely certain where his place is anymore.<BR/><BR/>Morrison's JLA shows Kyle's inexperience and insecurity around legends at the same time as he shows the cooperative, optimistic side that works very well with a group. Kelly's Obsidian Age shows a Kyle tormented by something he doesn't understand, but in the end, pulling through where only he was ready to do so.<BR/><BR/>Johns's Kyle shows the determined crusader who'll bring back his predecessor/enemy on blind faith and will. Gibbons, the Kyle who's finally found camaraderie and a place to belong.<BR/><BR/>The thing is, all of these different portrayals, different highlighted aspects, still feel like the same character deep down. All these writers and their vastly different takes represent the way different situations bring out whole other, unexpected sides to people. They represent different stages of life and experience. But in the end, it's still the same character.<BR/><BR/>And it just seems wrong to examine/criticize one writer's take without exploring the whole deal. It robs the character of so much depth and emotional resonance. And sometimes, contemplating irregularities can make a story even better for all the unspoken/unseen possibilities. :-)<BR/><BR/>That said, sometimes you've just got a bad character. If I *ever* end up reading a portrayal of Jade that I actually like, I'll go back and critique all of her other writers like mad, to find out what works and what doesn't. But that hasn't happened, even though many, many writers have given her a shot. At some point you just have to throw in the towel and blame the character.<BR/><BR/>Really though, comics are like collaborative novels. You're not really *supposed* to be able to tell who wrote what line where. The *story* is what's important. :-)kalinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417686761943716312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141307560832981922006-03-02T08:52:00.000-05:002006-03-02T08:52:00.000-05:00There's no such thing as reading too much into it,...There's no such thing as reading too much into it, Ragnell. What's on the page is on the page. Being ostensibly "unintentional" doesn't take it away, and in a number of ways actually makes it deeper and more worth teasing out. You brought a lot to light regarding the character Jade with your reading, I think. Certainly I paid more attention not only to Jade, but to the whole idea of what it means to be a permanent second-banana in a superhero context, particularly what it means for women. <BR/><BR/>So yeah, those are my favorite posts of yours, even though I haven't read any of the books you talk about.Haute Corbeillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07185246237238633338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141304243539688332006-03-02T07:57:00.000-05:002006-03-02T07:57:00.000-05:00"It takes the fun out." Ah, but the fun wouldn't ..."It takes the fun out." Ah, but the fun wouldn't exist in the first place without the writer (and/or artist), would it?Elaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009119466346396986noreply@blogger.com