tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post115329964210878618..comments2024-01-02T09:18:23.893-05:00Comments on Written World: Wednesday Morning Follow-upRagnellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1154160544080772442006-07-29T04:09:00.000-04:002006-07-29T04:09:00.000-04:00Samantha said:Complaints about Power Girl's chest ...<B>Samantha said:</B><BR/><I>Complaints about Power Girl's chest being over emphasized are AT LEAST as valid as the complaints about Supergirl needing to eat a sandwich.</I><BR/><BR/>1) The argument presented in the linked post isn't that PG's chest is "over emphasized", but rather that large chest = bimbo = unworthy of reading. The blame falls onto PG -- who has a strong personality in many of her runs -- and not on an industry that objectifies women and a society that believes in an inverse proportion of breast size and intelligence.<BR/><BR/>2) Complaints that Supergirl needs to "eat a sandwhich" totally trivializes the horrible reality of eating disorders, and that exact phrase is often used to further the cycle of shame that these women are subjected to. To believe that argument has ANY place in a feminist analysis is seriously fucked up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1154160432648038252006-07-29T04:07:00.000-04:002006-07-29T04:07:00.000-04:00There's also a very big difference between Power G...There's also a very big difference between Power Girl's chest and Supergirl's build that you're not considering, Samantha.<BR/><BR/>There are women out there with natural builds like Power Girl. My mother for example, is a match proportionally shall we say.<BR/><BR/>To immediately trash Power Girl for her breast size...would you then trash actual women for *daring* to be large breasted.<BR/><BR/>While there are girls that are thin, healthy thin girls tend not to have Supergirl's skeletal build. There's a big difference. Most people with that build are *sick*. With a very real disorder that can cause permanent damage or death.<BR/><BR/>And okay, let's assume for one second that a person has little enough self-confidence to decide to emulate one of these characters.<BR/><BR/>Well, a lot fewer women *die* from breast implants than they do from eating disorders.kalinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417686761943716312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1154159846319623012006-07-29T03:57:00.000-04:002006-07-29T03:57:00.000-04:00Samantha -- When presented as the sole reason to a...Samantha -- When presented as the sole reason to avoid buying a character, and as justification for assuming she has an empty head (I didn't read the Claremont series, so that may be where the idea came from) it sounds far too much like comments defending Power Girl's breasts as her only distinguishing characteristic. Both ideas throw the personality of a character away in favor of concentrating on her chest.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1154158874106545662006-07-29T03:41:00.000-04:002006-07-29T03:41:00.000-04:00ragnell, I enjoy your stuff, but I really don't se...ragnell, I enjoy your stuff, but I really don't see what the fit over the Power Girl Comment is about.<BR/><BR/>I'm a woman. I'm a feminist. I find it repulsive that PG has such huge breasts, because it is clearly a sign that all the artists/writers think a woman is defined by is the size of her breasts. Because, sadly, for many years, Power Girl's brain was as empty as her chest was full. From your comments above, I suppose you were spared those issues, for which you should be glad. <BR/><BR/>Complaints about Power Girl's chest being over emphasized are AT LEAST as valid as the complaints about Supergirl needing to eat a sandwich. It's about presenting an unrealistic, distorted image of feminity and womanhood to the comic book buying audience, and I would think you would understand that, not bash such an opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153584218592029602006-07-22T12:03:00.000-04:002006-07-22T12:03:00.000-04:00Her vision powers came back with IC, because her n...Her vision powers came back with IC, because her new origin is that she IS Kryptonian, after all, just Earth-2 Kryptonian.<BR/><BR/>Which arguably makes he MORE powerful than Superman, because the Kryptonite that hurts Kal-El doesn't hurt Kal-L, or Kara Zor-L either. So she has one LESS weakness.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14772087090448461047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153580915619169952006-07-22T11:08:00.000-04:002006-07-22T11:08:00.000-04:00I don't think I've seen a story where she's used t...I don't think I've seen a story where she's used telescopic/x-ray/heat vision in the last couple of years, but I could be wrong.<BR/><BR/>I'm a little surprised that there's been so many comments about this topic. Power Girl's a great character. Debating the appropriateness of her cup size seems a little bit ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153542835825996242006-07-22T00:33:00.000-04:002006-07-22T00:33:00.000-04:00For me the defining thing about Power Girl was tha...For me the defining thing about Power Girl was that she could kick some major ass. <BR/><BR/>Ragnell, is it me or did PG's cup size only start to get out of control when Sears started drawing her in JLE? I remember her being buxom but reasonably so before.(Then again, I was always more of a Huntress guy myself, so I could be wrong.)<BR/><BR/>Also, does she still have vision powers?notinthefacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12537680561821564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153521956995729532006-07-21T18:45:00.000-04:002006-07-21T18:45:00.000-04:00Well, I hate to say it, but sometimes it is a turn...Well, I hate to say it, but sometimes it <I>is</I> a turn-on. That's not all it is, of course, and this is partly my personal taste (I like female characters like that, for some reason), but it's one of several valid descriptors.<BR/><BR/>Where I see the "sass" is that she often tosses out quips and snappy patter, she's slightly more irreverent than most superheroes without going into full-on clowning. She can get into the dramatic stuff but most of the time she goes about her work with a bit of dry wit.Evan Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263250766060234515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153515439287043702006-07-21T16:57:00.000-04:002006-07-21T16:57:00.000-04:00I have issue with describing her as "sassy" becaus...I have issue with describing her as "sassy" because it belittles her personality. Makes it seem like its something cute and a turn-on.<BR/><BR/>As I see her, Power Girl is not sassy. Power Girl is straightforward and honest, and has a major temper. And yes, she's sexually healthy, but she's not "sassy" like some wet dream.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153497462564305192006-07-21T11:57:00.000-04:002006-07-21T11:57:00.000-04:00Isn't it sexist to assume that because a woman has...<EM>Isn't it sexist to assume that because a woman has large breasts that she is anti-feminist or unintelligent?</EM><BR/><BR/>No one is saying Power Girl's large breasts, in and of themselves, make her anything. It's that years and years of exploitative writers and artists have focused on her breasts to the detriment of any other aspect of her character. She's become a <A HREF="http://daveslongbox.blogspot.com/2005/09/boob-war-climax-everybody-loves-power.html" REL="nofollow">walking boob joke,</A> and to attempt to argue that a sassy personality makes up for the fact that she's known first and foremost as a sex object is just an exercise in denial. If we're talking misogyny in superhero comics, Power Girl is part of the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153466883574146802006-07-21T03:28:00.000-04:002006-07-21T03:28:00.000-04:00Isn't it sexist to assume that because a woman has...Isn't it sexist to assume that because a woman has large breasts that she is anti-feminist or unintelligent? I thought the fact that she was comfortable with her body, strong as Superman, and able/willing to smack Guy Gardner around made her a little likeable. I also thought she was kind of a slob while at home.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153456622892132482006-07-21T00:37:00.000-04:002006-07-21T00:37:00.000-04:00After Geoff Johns take on Impulse... I like your s...After Geoff Johns take on Impulse... I like your second post better.Batiduendehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00752011198757678247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153450580697108002006-07-20T22:56:00.000-04:002006-07-20T22:56:00.000-04:00Oops! I thought my first post didn't take.Oops! I thought my first post didn't take.notinthefacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12537680561821564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153450540288940232006-07-20T22:55:00.000-04:002006-07-20T22:55:00.000-04:00James, no character is irredeemable. That's why we...James, no character is irredeemable. That's why we have Grant Morrison.notinthefacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12537680561821564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153450480460372942006-07-20T22:54:00.000-04:002006-07-20T22:54:00.000-04:00From one James to another:No character is irredeem...From one James to another:<BR/><BR/>No character is irredeemable. That's why we have Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison.notinthefacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12537680561821564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153449450080685902006-07-20T22:37:00.000-04:002006-07-20T22:37:00.000-04:00"On the one side, sexist rude fanboys and creators..."<I>On the one side, sexist rude fanboys and creators who follow the money trend. On the other, fascist progressives who want us to follow *their* vision of dignity.</I>" - Kris (badficwriter) <BR/><BR/>Fascist progressives? Wow. I don't understand that sentiment at all. <BR/><BR/>It's not too weird - I just don't believe that tools of another's house can be appropriated into a politicized groups' symbols of resistance from oppression. I'm not proselytizing.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11402943238291348885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153445681984548962006-07-20T21:34:00.000-04:002006-07-20T21:34:00.000-04:00And now I can't STOP thinking about Power Girl's b...And now I can't STOP thinking about Power Girl's breasts.<BR/><BR/>Thank you all so very much...Evan Watershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263250766060234515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153443496259569012006-07-20T20:58:00.000-04:002006-07-20T20:58:00.000-04:00Boy, I love living life on the fence. On the one ...Boy, I love living life on the fence. <BR/><BR/>On the one side, sexist rude fanboys and creators who follow the money trend. On the other, fascist progressives who want us to follow *their* vision of dignity.<BR/><BR/>Going off to read more superhero porn, now.<BR/><BR/>Kris (badficwriter)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153407983629458322006-07-20T11:06:00.000-04:002006-07-20T11:06:00.000-04:00Someone who's been reading comics longer than I ha...Someone who's been reading comics longer than I have told me that a big part of PG, as a character (no pun-intended), was her endowment.<BR/><BR/>I remember her from some All-Star Squadron stuff, when I was a kid, and I never got that vibe from her. Ever.<BR/><BR/>But, I started a thread about this at CBR and got quite a few responses (topic prompted by Erik Larsen's comments, coincidentally) that echoed my friend's.<BR/><BR/>The way I resolve it is that damn-near any character is redeemable (Blade proved that), so even if her breasts were her signature, at one point, they needn't be endorsed by Goodyear and they certainly don't need to (and I'd prefer that they didn't) stand in for an actual personality - one that doesn't make me hate her would be nice, btw.<BR/><BR/>If she's draggin' a ton of titties around from one fight to the next, it becomes pure comedy and I enjoy the character when she's about more than that.<BR/><BR/>This'll probably hurt my point, but I enjoyed her in JLE. She was mean, she was curvy, she was in comedic situations... but she wasn't a walking rack.<BR/><BR/>That was cool, even though I like breasts as much, if not more, as the next (hetero) man.Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06305755944694741335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153398581401433482006-07-20T08:29:00.000-04:002006-07-20T08:29:00.000-04:00This topic has been great. I am glad to see so man...This topic has been great. I am glad to see so many interesting opinions on this issue.Roland Doddshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17819155097718124744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153388676905278562006-07-20T05:44:00.000-04:002006-07-20T05:44:00.000-04:00James -- The link I provided? That was her creati...James -- The link I provided? That was her creation. Her early stories. The original intent of the character was to provide an Earth-2 version of Supergirl to make the interactions of the JSA more interesting. A character to banter with the old men. Old-fashioned 40s era men, she was a 70s character. Every piece of her design and personality is made from taking Supergirl (who was designed for little children) and changing something that would make her clash with the existing JSA personalities in an interesting way. Hence, a hole in her costume rather than an S-Shield and an attitude that doesn't take kindly to patriarchal patronising.<BR/><BR/>Look at the art. Is that art designed for titillation or wank fantasies? No, that's art designed to tell a superhero soap opera.<BR/><BR/>It's not the character, James, it isn't. It's not even the damned costume. It's the <B>creators</B>.<BR/><BR/>And liking Power Girl is not <I>settling</I>. That's my whole issue with your argument, you're implying that female readers are defensive about Power Girl simply because "She's all we have." No, people like her because they see themselves in her, or see something we want to be. And that is why some Power Girl fans get defensive when she's reduced to a pair of breasts.<BR/><BR/>So, the character doesn't speak to you. Okay, that's fine. That's no reason to write her off as purely for the perverts because if we do we lose a character that <B>does</B> speak to a lot of people. A personality that rings true. A set of values and virtues we'd like to integrate into our own personalities. Someone who says and does things that we can't do in our everday ordinary lives.<BR/><BR/>We lose a well-defined and well-loved personality to an endless parade of boob jokes, and it's already started.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153388004771346392006-07-20T05:33:00.000-04:002006-07-20T05:33:00.000-04:00A story; Power Girl is my desktop background. My ...A story; Power Girl is my desktop background. My mother, who was visiting, looked at her last night and asked me about her because she looked so strong and interesting. So I explained her backstory. I explained how she's the original Superman's cousin, adopted daughter and annointed heir. I explained her attitude and her pride and her aggressiveness. I explained how she refused to stand in Superman's shadow and how she rocked the boat at the JSA. The upshot is my mother is now a fan of Power Girl.<BR/><BR/>I've been a fan of Power Girl ever since I first saw her. I love that she loves her breasts. I've always pegged Karen as a bit of a tease - she's gorgeous and you can look all you want but you'll never, ever touch her unless she lets you. And she knows this. And she's <I>laughing</I> about it. This is the woman who laughed at her <I>stalker</I>. Power Girl's one of the ultimate power fantasies, the woman who can wear whatever she wants and be as sexualised as she likes and still be completely safe.<BR/><BR/>Plus the boob window is giving stellar service in emphasising the fact she isn't wearing the 'S'. Everyone else in the Superman family does; even a strong, independant man like John Henry Irons seem to feel that the 'S' adds more to him. Karen's the only one who stands up under her own banner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153385432631794412006-07-20T04:50:00.000-04:002006-07-20T04:50:00.000-04:00"Seriously, though, James: What's so feminist abou..."<I>Seriously, though, James: What's so feminist about not being proud of your body? What's so empowering about a character who's that worried about what Booster Gold's saying behind her back?</I>" - Chris Sims<BR/><BR/>Chris, this is a cop-out. None of this debate implies that Power Girl or women like her should not be proud of their bodies. I haven't said that nor do I believe that. <BR/><BR/>The problem is that Power Girl provides a sexualized representation of a female metahuman specifically for the male gaze alone. Her breasts were <I>created by men to please men</I>, and obstruct Power Girl's supposed identification with feminism for that reason. <BR/><BR/>"<I>Sure, sure, the spectral pimply-faced teenage boy won't pay attention to that, and said pimply-faced teenage boy may be the Platonic representation of the average comics reader, but if we're already assuming the worst of the audience, then there's no reason we should expect anything better than ALL-STAR BATMAN each month, and the "let's make comics vaguely more palatable to female readers" movement is doomed from the start. Damn that was a long sentence.</I>" - Evan Waters<BR/><BR/>If you are a minority comics reader, I believe you shouldn't expect anything better than <I>All-Star Batman</I> each month. You rarely get much more than a printed minstrel show. How often will mainstream Black male characters appear shirtless after bedding White females in comics? How often will Asian Americans perform martial arts or technical wizardry? How often will nappy-headed Black thugs speak Ebonics before robbing the defenseless on the streets of Gotham or Metropolis before some Great White Super-Hope dispatches the bad guys and saves the day?<BR/><BR/>Promoting real feminist superheroines in comics does not reflect some vague desire to help out female comic readers. Feminism helps everyone because commonplace misogyny hurts everyone, and perverts our collective ability to treat women with genuine respect. <BR/><BR/>"<I>Fine, while they snigger behind her back, she goes and catches a serial killer who targets women he views as promiscuous, testifies at his trial and is there for his appeals. In the balance, has womankind gained or lost?</I>" - Evan Waters<BR/><BR/>Oppression questions do not operate on some societal calculus. To somehow derive a net total for female oppression here totally misses the point. <BR/><BR/>Power Girl is a fictional character written for the sexual gratification of White guys; for me that origin alone denies her possible feminist credentials.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11402943238291348885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153373851227730722006-07-20T01:37:00.000-04:002006-07-20T01:37:00.000-04:00From personal experience, to me PG has always been...From personal experience, to me PG has always been boobs on a window. Add the complex history and the appeal of the character was zero for me. With or without the window on her boobs, she will still come off as buxom and hot. Personally, I don't think the window is necessary. Too distracting for me.<BR/><BR/> Later on I checked out a couple of issues of her story in JSA Classified because Amanda Conner was drawing her comic. I knew her pencils would do right by the character and the arc had good a buzz. I like her now, the JSA Classified story was good. It hit a lot of notes right and I shared her frustrations about the questions of her origin. As long as artist and writers don't have her doing crotch kicks and other sexualized poses that pass as attacks, then it's all good.<BR/><BR/>And about this:<BR/><BR/><I>No matter how respectful an artist tries to be toward a superheroine, if she's wearing skintight spandex, or fishnets, or Daisy Dukes to fight crime it makes you wonder what exactly makes them feminist. Really, what does? How feminist can one be if their regular superhero attire engenders stolen glances toward one's bustline and hushed conversations between her male co-workers about her voluptuous curves behind her back?</I><BR/><BR/> These are idealizations, power fantasies, a lot of us wish we were that beautiful and confident with our bodies that we could parade around like them in such outfits. Or similar, more fashinable ones ;). However, the main target audiece are boys/men. There are many issues that go on that lead to the mistreatment of these characters. That's why you got feminist comic blogs or other movements which speak agaist this and try to make differece when calling out these problems. <BR/><BR/> In the end though, your wallet speaks louder. If you don't agree with certain things in comics, then don't buy it. It's not the ultimate solution to the problem, but it's one of them. Nobody forces anyone to pick up comics. You buy what you like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1153368268411171472006-07-20T00:04:00.000-04:002006-07-20T00:04:00.000-04:00I'd totally dig sweaters.And maybe glasses.I'd totally dig sweaters.<BR/><BR/>And maybe glasses.Chris Simshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320487883818314339noreply@blogger.com