tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post114180119050791141..comments2024-01-02T09:18:23.893-05:00Comments on Written World: Where's My Adolescent Power Fantasy?Ragnellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-16410436668650071632007-09-22T12:19:00.000-04:002007-09-22T12:19:00.000-04:00My friend Micah pointed me towards this Power Girl...My friend Micah pointed me towards this Power Girl article. This is really great stuff.<BR/><BR/>I would love to invite you to contribute to a superhero theory forum that I host over at www.thecapesymposium.com<BR/><BR/>It is for people who not only enjoy superheroes, but who actually enjoy THINKING about them.<BR/><BR/>Check it out, I think you will like it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/><BR/>Josh DahlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142139193456317072006-03-11T23:53:00.000-05:002006-03-11T23:53:00.000-05:00Sarcasm meters activa--BOOM!Mr. Sulu?Sir I don't u...Sarcasm meters activa--BOOM!<BR/><BR/>Mr. Sulu?<BR/><BR/>Sir I don't understand.<BR/><BR/>Damn it all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142138155193726692006-03-11T23:35:00.000-05:002006-03-11T23:35:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.James Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142137161651048042006-03-11T23:19:00.000-05:002006-03-11T23:19:00.000-05:00Hold it right there, James. You are venturing int...Hold it right there, James. You are venturing into bad territory here. This was an all-around amiable discussion until your last comment.<BR/><BR/>I normally avoid commenting when I'm angry. That's why I haven't answered your argument yet, but I'm stepping in here before this discussion gets any nastier. And from what I've read of you, I can easily predict that you're going to claim that you're taking the high road and being polite, but what I'm reading between the lines is highly offensive.<BR/><BR/>I knew, writing this post, I'd likely see you here to argue, as you have a sensitive spot for Ron Marz. But every writer has high points and low points, and criticism of their story and yes, even the <I>themes <B>behind</B> their story</I> is not a personal attack.<BR/><BR/>Mickle was not attacking Ron Marz as a person. She was interpreting <B>my post</B> by outlining a pervailing social trend that is reflected in Marz's writing. In fact, she articulated what I was trying to say.<BR/><BR/>And you know for a fact I don't find Ron Marz's writing overall misogynistic. I'm still going to say so when when he writes one of his female characters as weak. And I'm going to outline why I was disappointed because I am personally within my rights to be disappointed.<BR/><BR/>In case you haven't noticed, James, you are the only male commenter on this thread who has tried to tell the female commenters what <I>they, as women, <B>should</B> find empowering</I>. Even when someone else agrees with you, they have not taken this liberty. In your rush to defend your favorite writer, you've demonstrated less respect to women than anyone accuses of him.<BR/><BR/>I very much doubt the man you are defending would have this attitude. I would put money down that if I emailed this link to Ron Marz he would most likely tell me he wasn't thinking so deeply about it, to try some of the other storylines and that not everyone's going to like everything he writes so "Sorry" but I very much doubt "I wanted my female readers to see standing aside and taking sexism quietly as empowering" will be in the response.<BR/><BR/>Now, you may want to leave in a defensive huff right now and I don't blame you, but if you check back you might find a friendlier comment somewhere after this one. Before this display of temper, I was planning on dissecting the major holes in your argument without ranting about your arrogance and condescending tone.Ragnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00373059673228550524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142133481613989012006-03-11T22:18:00.000-05:002006-03-11T22:18:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.James Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142106464910139322006-03-11T14:47:00.000-05:002006-03-11T14:47:00.000-05:00Ken, sorry to dissapoint. :) I picked Mickle as ...Ken, sorry to dissapoint. :) I picked Mickle as my screen name because I write about books a lot (ok, well, I <I>meant</I> to write about books a lot) and it's the nickname for one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite series by one of my favorite authors: Queen Augustus from Lloyd Alexander's Westmark series. That and Sara Crewe, Anne Shirley, Jo March and countless others were already taken.<BR/><BR/>James,<BR/><BR/>I rather thought Ragnell's point was that a) this type of attitude is so pervasive it even infects relatively good comics. (good meaning good as far as treating women) and, more importantly...<BR/><BR/>b) Comics are about fantasies. Being able to deck the jackasses we have to deal with every day is a <I>big</I> fantasy of most women I know. Denying Sara that opportunity jerks women out of the story because it's so at odds with what <I>we</I> are fantasizing about. So the whole set-up reminds us that even in comics that try include us, we are still secondary readers in the minds of the writers.Micklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634363950848962653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142103410244716802006-03-11T13:56:00.000-05:002006-03-11T13:56:00.000-05:00James run quickly!They're like jackles! JACKLES I ...James run quickly!<BR/><BR/>They're like jackles! JACKLES I SAY!<BR/><BR/>And none of us are going to be able to help you.<BR/><BR/>I'm an idiot and the other men just want carnage!<BR/><BR/>And if Ragnell's most recent post is any indication she's coming down from the mountain soon!<BR/><BR/>Run my friend for there is blood in the water!<BR/><BR/>Exclamation point!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142030326374892732006-03-10T17:38:00.000-05:002006-03-10T17:38:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.James Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142018563740702572006-03-10T14:22:00.000-05:002006-03-10T14:22:00.000-05:00"It shows that Sara knows when to make her move."W..."It shows that Sara knows when to make her move."<BR/><BR/>Which is apparently never - which was Ragnell's point. How can your actions be empowering when the stereotype is that you can't do anything - and you never do anything? Especially when, as Ragnell points out - the situation has real world counterparts in which women feel trapped physically and legally? It just undermines her strength and turns her into someone being rescued - which is hardly <I>my</I> superhero fantasy and apparently isn't Ragnell's, which again, was the point of the essay.<BR/><BR/>And it doesn't really make sense to say that not decking the guy is the same as "know[ing] when to hold 'em, know[ing] when to fold 'em" when the guy is set up to be pummeled <I>and is</I> but <I>by someone else</I>. In the absence of explaining why this situation is unique, rather than universal (as Ragnell asserts) your arguement simply suggests that women <I>should</I> always wait to be rescued.Micklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634363950848962653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142018446064649452006-03-10T14:20:00.001-05:002006-03-10T14:20:00.001-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Spencer Carnagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11850308449842913005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1142018434831774982006-03-10T14:20:00.000-05:002006-03-10T14:20:00.000-05:00I'm with James. I don't see a situation where the...I'm with James. I don't see a situation where the woman had to keep quiet for fear of making waves. I see Sara pretty much ignoring the guy. Having not read the issue, I don't know what the next panel is like. Was she offended? Did she feel threatened? Was there a thought balloon depicting her reaction to this guy's remarks? Granted, it would have been nice if Sara kicked his ass at a later time, but the fact that didn't doesn't indicate that Marz was trying to portray here as the professional that doesn't want to upset anyone. And the 3rd party that's doing the ass whooping, that's probably Marz writing himself in saying that he wishes he could be the one that wants to punch someone when he see things like this happen.<BR/><BR/>As for wonder woman, the only interpresentation of her that made sense to me was her appearance in the New Frontier. She did exude many of the same traits that male super heroes have, however I never saw her as a "Man with boobs." I just saw her as a tough ass broad who came from a Warrior culture of Amazon Women. And that has always been the problem for me. I never saw room for anything more than that. She doesn't need it. She's a stranger in a strange land that's a warrior princess whose the daughter of a Goddess that can throw tanks and flies in an invisible plane. Any attempt to add anything more to that never seems to stick and doesn't seem very believable because it steps away from the core of the character. As much as I'll probably be flambed for saying it, that's not enough for her to warrant a monthly book. I'm sure there are much more interesting DC female characters who deserve a book much more than her, they just aren't subject to losing their rights if they don't have a book about them being published.Spencer Carnagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11850308449842913005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141972040728465982006-03-10T01:27:00.000-05:002006-03-10T01:27:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.James Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141928172170603332006-03-09T13:16:00.000-05:002006-03-09T13:16:00.000-05:00Hi!This article was excellent, I'm gong to forward...Hi!<BR/>This article was excellent, I'm gong to forward it to a few people. <BR/>Thanks for writing!<BR/><BR/>-casey-Casey Malonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624452358204959703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141920751452555612006-03-09T11:12:00.000-05:002006-03-09T11:12:00.000-05:00I agree that "doing nothing" isn't empowering. Ho...I agree that "doing nothing" isn't empowering. However, the idea that a man could punch another man for being a jerk - and get away with it - is just as much an adolescent power fantasy as a woman punching him. Granted, maybe the punchee reacts differently depending on whether it's a man or a woman who hits him. But it's just something we're not allowed to do in the real world.<BR/><BR/>Again: I don't read Witchblade, so I can't comment on this specific scenario. But if Marz intends to handle things at all realistically, then the guy who did punch jerkface will likely get into trouble: one doesn't deck a federal agent without there being legal consequences. [Unless at this point said federal agent has been revealed as <I>eeeevil</I>, rather than just a creep, of course.]<BR/><BR/>Though obviously, there are a lot of things Sara could've done to jerkface to get him off her back which fall short of punch-to-the-kisser.Ferrous Bullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09707719932073719083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141920430482328632006-03-09T11:07:00.000-05:002006-03-09T11:07:00.000-05:00Witchblade's a superhero - they solve problems wit...Witchblade's a superhero - they solve problems with violence, regardless of gender. In the real world, you get arrested for punching people, even jerks. But in comics, punching is as common as sneezing.<BR/><BR/>In other words, I think she should have kicked that guy square in the nuts.David Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561127611004920764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141916158716381962006-03-09T09:55:00.000-05:002006-03-09T09:55:00.000-05:00Speaking for myself, I also don't find it an empow...Speaking for myself, I also don't find it an empowering example. What is "empowering" about not taking control of the situation and having others address it for you? Even if Sara's behavior was "professional", as you say, it doesn't sound like the other guy's behavior was professional at all. Why should Sara have to suffer a less-than-respectful work environment? Maybe she couldn't sock the guy in the face, but she could have done something about his behavior.<BR/><BR/>Just _her_ personally doing something about her own circumstances is much more satisyfing than "random other guy fixes things for her".<BR/><BR/>Also: Sexual harrassment as an identifier that a character is a jerk? So cliché!Kittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09906510341329356653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141885448664701992006-03-09T01:24:00.000-05:002006-03-09T01:24:00.000-05:00James, not to speak for Ragnell, but personally I ...James, not to speak for Ragnell, but personally I see it the opposite way. See, if Sara were a man, facing a jerky comment like that, she probably would have been allowed to be professional *and* take action. "Steve" would have punched the guy once, then calmly stated that they had work to do. We've seen that sort of scene often enough in comics.<BR/><BR/>See, professionalism allows for putting a stop to behavior that impedes the goals, which this guy's did. A single take down would have been well within her rights, and *expected* if she were male.<BR/><BR/>Honestly, men have been using the idea of "professionalism" and "not making waves" as means to keep women from defending themselves at the workplace from those sorts of comments.<BR/><BR/>And women are trained to think, "Well, if I just ignore it, it'll stop, and I don't have to look like the bad guy." But it doesn't stop, and honestly, it doesn't matter how professional you are in the work place, if the work place is not professional, you're pretty much screwed.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but I will *never* see keeping quiet in the face of that sort of behavior as "empowering". No matter if it's a man or a woman in either role. There's absolutely nothing empowering about silence.<BR/><BR/>*Doing something* is empowering. Not all of us women can...but Sara *could* have. And that would have been inspirational. To me, this wasn't a moral lesson, it was a missed opportunity.kalinarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01417686761943716312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141879244333807592006-03-08T23:40:00.000-05:002006-03-08T23:40:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.James Meeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15125466138669301618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141858821440484522006-03-08T18:00:00.000-05:002006-03-08T18:00:00.000-05:00Very cool post. Some thoughts:Re: "men with breas...Very cool post. Some thoughts:<BR/><BR/>Re: "men with breasts"<BR/><BR/>There are some behaviors we're socially conditioned to think of as masculine or feminine; and violence - especially in-your-face superhero violence - is definitely considered masculine. [Men punch; women slap.] So when a female character takes on these masculine traits, it can confuse a reader's ingrained expectations. In particular, if a reader thinks a female character has <B>only</B> masculine traits, the question becomes: what about her is still feminine?<BR/><BR/>Apart from looking hot, of course. ;-)<BR/><BR/>And in some cases, I think there are lazy or incompetent writers who fall back on the "men with breasts" cliche: they don't know how else to portray strong characters, so they just write a girl as if she was a male hero, then flip the gender bit at the end. Which would be fine, except it renders gender irrelevant, and I don't know too many men or women who argue that their gender <I>didn't</I> have an impact on who they were.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that gender should predispose a character to one set of behavior or another. I am saying that a writer who doesn't take a character's gender into account - who doesn't ask him or herself how it affected that character and their development as a person - is being sloppy and will usually end up with a shallow character. A female writer who writes "girls with dicks" as male characters is being just as sloppy.<BR/><BR/>The stereotype is women don't like violence, and by and large that's true. Then again, most women don't like superheroes, either. The fact you were discussing superheroes on a GL fansite should've been his first clue you weren't like most women in that regard. :-)<BR/><BR/>Re: adolescent power fantasies<BR/><BR/>I don't read Witchblade myself, so I can't comment on the issue in question. But in some sense, what you describe is what we all go through when we finally outgrow adolescent power fantasies. Or rather, when we finally realize that we can't solve everything with violence, we can't always punch our way to victory, we can't beat the crap out of every smug asshole who crosses our path, no matter how much they really, really deserve it. Because in the adult world there are rules and one of those rules is "no punching people just because you want to."<BR/><BR/>Dagnabbit.<BR/><BR/>So I'm sorry you didn't get to see Sara punch that guy. But Marz probably didn't want her to get arrested. :-)Ferrous Bullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09707719932073719083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141838003843448972006-03-08T12:13:00.000-05:002006-03-08T12:13:00.000-05:00"Yes, I know they're nerds and can't actually TALK..."Yes, I know they're nerds and can't actually TALK to women, so the idea of a woman constantly seeking sexual favors appeals to them, but the 'overly sexual super-independent female' supporting cast member is way overused."<BR/><BR/>... Well, this sounds like a failure to create a 3-D portrayal of the average comic writer. Most of them (and I've met a few) seem happily married.richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07947857899538327337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141826293991421492006-03-08T08:58:00.000-05:002006-03-08T08:58:00.000-05:00Wow, Ragnell, this was really a (pardon the pun) p...Wow, Ragnell, this was really a (pardon the pun) powerful essay. Not to mention brave - I learned so much about you! One of the best pieces you've ever done. Thanks so much for writing this.<BR/><BR/>Trust me, if you have adult female power fantasies keep reading BoP, it won't disappoint you. :)Elaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009119466346396986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16538843.post-1141808591426510592006-03-08T04:03:00.000-05:002006-03-08T04:03:00.000-05:00I don't see the 'men with breasts' thing as being ...I don't see the 'men with breasts' thing as being that legit, but (and maybe this is more what they're responding to?) I am sick and damn tired of male writers who write their fantasy women into their books. <BR/><BR/>Yes, I know they're nerds and can't actually TALK to women, so the idea of a woman constantly seeking sexual favors appeals to them, but the 'overly sexual super-independent female' supporting cast member is way overused. <BR/><BR/>The fact is most people aren't like that, so it comes off as either a failure on the writer's part to create an 3-dimensional character, or POSSIBLY a character who seeks approval by behaving in this manner. And besides, it's sleazy when it's a guy so why is it attractive when it's a woman? I just can't stand it, creatively.<BR/><BR/>On Power-Girl, I was really enjoying that JSA: Classified story with her, which sputtered into Infinite Crisi...before that happened. I thought Amanda Conner's art really captured PG in a way I don't think I've seen before. Re: Wonder Woman, man Darwyn Cooke really understood that character in New Frontier. I like WW, but she's just hardly ever given much of a personality.<BR/><BR/>As for you and your opinions, I don't ALWAYS agree with you, but you tend to make me think more than other comics blogs do, and I really appreciate it. :)Dean Trippehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04747690659717758337noreply@blogger.com